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Old 12-04-2012, 06:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecustu7 View Post
It will almost always provide a tad shorter stopping distance, especially in wet conditions.
remember it is anti-lock braking not reduce stopping distance braking. It may in some instances, but not all.

What ABS does is when it senses impending wheel lock up it releases brake pressure and then reapplies once it has traction again. If you ride at a normal speed and jam on the front brake for example and activate the ABS, if you have a look at the road you should notice a skid followed by no skid followed by another skid in small succession. When there is no skid is where ABS has released brake pressure and then it has been reapplied before releasing again.

So would braking hard without activating ABS or would activating ABS where the brakes aren't applied the whole time and are pumping on and off be better? I say hard braking with maximum pressure consistently will win. In the wet it is harder to outdo ABS but in the dry it is quite easy, hence why all the videos are done in the wet when they say ABS is better because in the dry it's harder to activate ABS and it usually doesn't provide better results in terms of stopping distance in comparison to non-ABS
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Old 12-04-2012, 06:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothin2do View Post
Watch this-It's pretty much a no brainer...
Mandatory ABS on Motorcycles? - YouTube
in wet slippery conditions when a rider intentionally jabs the brakes as hard as he can and keeps them applied even when the wheel initially locks up because he knows he cannot fall off, yes it is a no brainer in those conditions
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:56 PM   #23
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ABS is going to be mandatory on all motorcycles sold in Europe by 2014, if I remember correctly. The law was based on the safety stats which have proven the efficacy of ABS. When in a panic stop situation the last thing on a person's mind is to not brake too hard. Only professional and maybe a few amature racers can keep their head well enough in an impending accident to not over brake without ABS and it's only because they drive at the max capabilities of their vehicle on a regular basis. If you don't race at least weekly, I would recommend ABS. I have confidence that given enough practice, I could stop better than the ABS, but I don't have that much time to practice, so I went with the ABS.

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Old 12-04-2012, 09:33 PM   #24
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it isnt only wet conditions, but gravel, leaves, road kills, metal plates/covers,
oil spills, anything that moves over the road, any garbage tossed out a car
window, anything.. hard braking on just smooth road can induce locks..

when your wheel[s] dont, lock or begin to lock, brakes function normally..
experienced racers will respond to impending locks by subtle easing
of input to avoid the locking but continue braking when no locking,,
so the abs under potential locking/skidding situations sort of
mimics what the skilled racer would do anyway...

you can do stoppies on dry road surfaces, as i discovered in my
one in your face emergency stop, no skidding [no tire marks]
and the momentary releases of the abs were not obvious
and at the end moment of the braking sequence she
carried her mass and momentum forward which resulted
in rear of motorcycle lifting up about 30 or so degrees..

in other strong braking such as mid roundabout when
some prawn decided he wanted my space [etc]
she has handled it very well, with stability
and excellent stopping or very fast slowing
to almost stop.. very reassuring..

to repeat, everyone has different riding habits
including braking etc, so, if at all interested
take a few abs bikes for test rides..
the proof is in [your] pudding
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atakacs View Post
When in a panic stop situation the last thing on a person's mind is to not brake too hard. Only professional and maybe a few amature racers can keep their head well enough in an impending accident to not over brake without ABS and it's only because they drive at the max capabilities of their vehicle on a regular basis. If you don't race at least weekly, I would recommend ABS.
you serious? only racers know how to brake properly without locking up? before i had my cbr250r i had a Yamaha DT175 trail bike i rode on the road with a much worse braking system than the cbr, with a drum brake on the rear. I had to panic stop a few times and came inches from an accident but i applied maximum braking and no i didn't lock up the brakes. On my cbr when i've had to hit the skids i haven't locked up the front either in a e-stop.

So by your judgement because i'm not a professional or a racer; i can't keep my head well enough to not over brake? if you are over-braking in an e-stop often and are requiring ABS to kick in a lot because you are just jabbing on the brakes i would recommend practicing braking because when you go ride on your buddy's R6 and a car pulls out on you, good luck!

such an ignorant post.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothin2do View Post
Watch this-It's pretty much a no brainer...
Mandatory ABS on Motorcycles? - YouTube
Where do you buy those skates at?
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:14 PM   #27
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I've moderated my stance on ABS over the last couple of years, but I'll say this - as I've said in every ABS thread for the last couple of years:
  • ABS gives a novice more control during stopping, especially on slippery and/or uneven sufaces.
  • If you think that ABS relieves you of the need to learn how to brake effectively, you're ignorant.
  • If you think that ABS will allow you to ride like an idiot and get away with it, you're stupid.

There is no secret to staying alive on a motorcycle - there are reams of information that can tell you how to love it and live. However, if you put yourself in situations more than once in a blue moon where you need ABS to save your butt, then you're going to die or be seriously injured.

ABS is a tool - and just like any tool, relying on it to the exclusion of skill and technique will result in tragedy. I see it in the firefighters I teach - the gear is oh-so-good, they have thermal imaging devices, they have alert devices - but the sad reality is that if you make a habit of going too far into a structure fire depending on these innovations, you will die - in the same way that many firefighters have died before. Every year, the Line-of-duty death reports by the USFA bear this out.

So if you want it, get ABS - but remember that your 12-second scan, your situational awareness, your skill at anticipating the idiotic maneuvers of drivers - all will serve you better than ABS. If ABS kicks in, odds are you screwed up. And if you make a habit of screwing up, you're going to eventually lose - no matter how many neat gadgets you have.

Use ABS as a last resort - not as a crutch.

Luke
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:00 PM   #28
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ok, keep getting this 'abs vs non abs' thing, as if its some contest..
also that abs fitted bikes arent as good on non slippery surfaces..
so take a cbr250r with abs, the difference is slight extra weight,
plus 3 front brake calipers instead of 2 on non abs front brake..

otherwise, in general stopping and in fast stopping where
the wheel does not start to lock, they are the same except for
the extra caliper up front on the abs system..
because abs senses wheel lock up and momentarily releases
pressure, then reapplies it in virtually the same instant as
the wheel continues to move, doesnt mean anything
as far as non-locking braking goes..

until you start to lock up the wheel, its a normal
braking system [with an extra front caliper]..

i researched this before buying, a bit concerned about
losing some rider control [4 previous road hondas]
but after finding out the facts including actual test riding
by experienced motorcycle journalists including experienced
racers, i was convinced that this is a worthwhile bit of tech,
with virtually no real downsides, and that i wouldnt [and did not]
lose control of my braking, including in real emergency stopping..

other than lockup situations, which are of course serious for motorcycles[!]
any, rider should treat braking with the importance it obviously deserves,
and gain braking skills thru practice braking as for any other skill..

i dont even think of my brakes as different, rather ride the same way
ive always riden, including with care on wet and slippery surfaces..
repeating the same advice to anyone with any queries about abs;
go to your dealer and take a few abs bikes for test rides..
anything others can say in text here must be limited
compared to the real life in-the-moment experience
of actually testing the system, for yourself..
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:20 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
I've moderated my stance on ABS over the last couple of years, but I'll say this - as I've said in every ABS thread for the last couple of years:
  • ABS gives a novice more control during stopping, especially on slippery and/or uneven sufaces.
  • If you think that ABS relieves you of the need to learn how to brake effectively, you're ignorant.
  • If you think that ABS will allow you to ride like an idiot and get away with it, you're stupid.

There is no secret to staying alive on a motorcycle - there are reams of information that can tell you how to love it and live. However, if you put yourself in situations more than once in a blue moon where you need ABS to save your butt, then you're going to die or be seriously injured.

ABS is a tool - and just like any tool, relying on it to the exclusion of skill and technique will result in tragedy. I see it in the firefighters I teach - the gear is oh-so-good, they have thermal imaging devices, they have alert devices - but the sad reality is that if you make a habit of going too far into a structure fire depending on these innovations, you will die - in the same way that many firefighters have died before. Every year, the Line-of-duty death reports by the USFA bear this out.

So if you want it, get ABS - but remember that your 12-second scan, your situational awareness, your skill at anticipating the idiotic maneuvers of drivers - all will serve you better than ABS. If ABS kicks in, odds are you screwed up. And if you make a habit of screwing up, you're going to eventually lose - no matter how many neat gadgets you have.

Use ABS as a last resort - not as a crutch.

Luke
I'd add one more thing to Luke's main points:

- On two wheels (unlike on four) ABS does not help maintain control when changing direction.

ABS is a no-brainer in cars because you can slam on the brakes and maintain directional control. As long as the wheels are going around in a car you can generally steer it. Once the wheels lock up in a car you lose traction and steering. ABS in cars can make up for deficiencies in driving skills.

On a motorcycle, applying the brakes too heavily while changing direction will see you off long before the brakes lock up.

One school of thought is that you should not be on the brakes at all when manoeuvring, which is probably most straight forward for a novice. Others accept a certain amount of "trail braking" going into a corner.

The oft quoted statistics on bikes with ABS are flawed. They come from a few motorcycles at the top end of the market, several years ago. Most would have been owned by older and more experienced riders, who tend to feature less in accident figures anyway.

Obviously ABS on a bike can help in some situations, but it is no substitute for learning handling skills........ and, more importantly, developing the road-craft skills to avoid the need for a quick stop in the first place.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewiCBR250R View Post
you serious? only racers know how to brake properly without locking up? before i had my cbr250r i had a Yamaha DT175 trail bike i rode on the road with a much worse braking system than the cbr, with a drum brake on the rear. I had to panic stop a few times and came inches from an accident but i applied maximum braking and no i didn't lock up the brakes. On my cbr when i've had to hit the skids i haven't locked up the front either in a e-stop.

So by your judgement because i'm not a professional or a racer; i can't keep my head well enough to not over brake? if you are over-braking in an e-stop often and are requiring ABS to kick in a lot because you are just jabbing on the brakes i would recommend practicing braking because when you go ride on your buddy's R6 and a car pulls out on you, good luck!

such an ignorant post.
Great, hero. I'm glad you are so skilled. The truth is, most people are not. That's why ABS is a good tool for the masses. And as far as recommending practicing.... the whole point of my post was that people don't practice maximum braking on a regular basis and that's where ABS comes in... it maintains nearly maximum traction even when the guy doesn't have the experience or panics and squeezes too hard despite experience.

I don't appreciate you calling that post ignorant. Applying maximum traction while practicing is a lot different than achieving the same when you face a split-second life-or-death accident situation. Most people's skills are nowhere near professional racers, and it's proven at the track time and time again. Most people show up for their first amature race and get embarrassed. I see it at Auto-crosses all the time. People show up thinking they are good or average drivers and their times are horribly slow... The diffference between a weekend racer whose been racing 10 years and a novice is huge. The differnce between a pro and that weekend racer is also huge. Furthermore, the amount of braking varies with road temperature, sun cover, rain, type of road surface, presence of sand, gravel, etc... The practice you get in a dry parking lot won't be the same braking resisitance in a sandy cruve orr a wet road. Maximum braking is a perishable skill. It needs to be practiced frequently and on lots of surface and weather conditions and at various speeds. If a novice thinks they are going to pick up a new motorcycle without ABS on day one and apply a skill like achieving and maintaining maximum braking in a panic situation on day 2, they are dead wrong.
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