Downshifting while breaking: revving up a bit to help the engine catch the gear?

[northernlights]

Hello everyone!

In the Twist of the Wrist II videos there's one about braking, where they show how the rider revs a bit each time he downshifts while breaking so that when the clutch is released the engine is already at the right rpm.

My question: is that necessary? I'm having a really hard time applying that. Maybe because i've been driving cars stick shift for 14 years and never did that so the way I downshift while breaking is now firmly implanted in my head. Most of the time I end up actually accelerating while I break as I tend to not gauge the amount of throttle to apply correctly. It seems to me like you need to be really, really well trained to get it right. So since it's so difficult for me to learn, do you guys think I should actually do that? What are the benefits?

Twist.of.the.Wrist.II_mpeg4.avi - YouTube

Twist.of.the.Wrist.II_mpeg4.avi - YouTube

[Jme250RA]

You don't have to, but the benefits are that the clutch doesn't slip/wear as much and you don't run the risk of the back wheel locking up under the decompressive load of downshifting. with a little practice you can get the hang of it. it's never to late to learn something new.

and it is braking not breaking.

[Rory_L]

Here's what I've found (with this bike):

- If I'm downshifting one gear (like taking on a hill or coming out of a corner), I give it a little throttle to get things to engage smoothly.You give enough to keep the bike from jerking then ease off if you are slowing or roll on if you are trying to get more power. It took practice to get it just right. I took essentially the same practice ride every week for a month to get it down.

- If I'm downshifting while coming to a stop, I downshift TWO gears (since I've already scrubbed off most of my speed) and I don't need to give it any throttle, just clutch and downshift the rest of the way to first before you stop.

I try not to spend a lot of time slipping the clutch to control speed. I know it can be done and motorcycle clutches are suited to do it. But I too drove manual transmission cars for years (and worked on motorcycles for a living) so in my mind slipping the clutch can be detrimental so I'm a little conservative when it comes to using the clutch for speed control; but, I will use it when necessary.

[northernlights]

Thank you both (and thanks for spelling correction). Could you elaborate on this a bit?

But I too drove manual transmission cars for years (and worked on motorcycles for a living) so in my mind slipping the clutch can be detrimental

[Rusty Shackleford]

Originally Posted by northernlights

I'm having a really hard time applying that. Maybe because i've been driving cars stick shift for 14 years and never did that so the way I downshift while breaking is now firmly implanted in my head.

What do you mean? When you're in a car and downshifting/engine braking, you shift into gear without applying any throttle at all? I've been driving 5-speeds off and on my whole driving life and I've never just dumped it into a gear without throttle when downshifting. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.

[Rory_L]

Originally Posted by northernlights

Thank you both (and thanks for spelling correction). Could you elaborate on this a bit?

I've changed a clutch or two in my time. Both cars and bikes. It's not a cheap or quick thing to do. Motorcycle clutches are better than car clutches just by their nature but both can be worn out. Perhaps I'm just a little oversensitive to this . . .

In a car, you wouldn't rest your foot on the clutch while driving, would you? Well some might, I don't as a habit. So when I'm in gear on the bike, I don't cover the clutch either; I pretty sure I can reach it when I need to, even in an emergency (it become second nature).

There are a few threads on this forum on slipping/mal-adjusted/ill-maintained clutches. My approach is simply this: the bike is not going to stay new forever, things are going to wear out. If possible, I'll do what I can to make it last. On the other hand, you want to develop safe and effective technique while riding (and the fine folks here on this forum collectively help with that).

I could have said it in less words: I try not to ever ride the clutch if at all possible.

[shisoshin]

northern - on 'i actually accelerate while i break' etc, the short throttle opening
is done as the clutch is disengaged [as in that video], thus this wouldnt cause
acceleration there being in that moment no contact between engine and
drivetrain.. getting the right revs during changing becomes more relevant
at high speeds/revs, than at lower speeds/revs, given the objectives and
primary effects, but you can change efficiently and well without, blipping
on downshifting at speeds and revs below 'high speed/revs'..

there will still be, and become virtually automatic with practice and time,
a co-ordination between all elements,, and not just stuffing it into gear..
clutch doesnt need to be overly slow either for smooth shifting..
ie, quick disengage of clutch using progressively shorter pull on
the clutch lever, and a still fast let-out, tho 'smoother'..

smooth, in my view, is probably best of the various criteria..
this may mean slower [clutch and generally] at first,,
depending on your potential skills to start with, but will, should
and must become more 'efficient' incl, faster, with time and repetition..

on the other hand, theres no harm in practicing any, riding skill..
depends how far you want to take it.. i dont practic wheelies or stoppies
or even tight figure 8's for eg, probably because of inherent laziness..

the more you enjoy riding, the better it will [actually] be, in terms of skills
development.. the more enjoyable, the less tension thru your muscles etc,
the more relaxed your body, the smoother your riding skills techniques..
as a general observation, there are many things to occupy your mind
while riding without focussing your attention and mind on specifics
such as blipping.. if you think of 'smoothness' instead, that will
translate thru your brain [with its 100 billion neurones]
into smooth[er] better riding techniques..

[northernlights]

Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford

What do you mean? When you're in a car and downshifting/engine braking, you shift into gear without applying any throttle at all? I've been driving 5-speeds off and on my whole driving life and I've never just dumped it into a gear without throttle when downshifting. Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying.

I mean that when I brake with the brake pedal AND engine-brake at the same time, i don't naturally give a bit of throttle. When I learned driving a car they were teaching everyone to brake with both the brake pedal and the engine braking for more efficient braking (which has saved me from a few rear endings). I compare it against a car because on a car you can't press both the brake and gas pedals at the same time.

Originally Posted by Rory_L

In a car, you wouldn't rest your foot on the clutch while driving, would you? Well some might, I don't as a habit. So when I'm in gear on the bike, I don't cover the clutch either; I pretty sure I can reach it when I need to, even in an emergency (it become second nature).

Oh OK I understand what you meant now. I completely agree.

Originally Posted by shisoshin

northern - on 'i actually accelerate while i break' etc, the short throttle opening
is done as the clutch is disengaged [as in that video], thus this wouldnt cause
acceleration there being in that moment no contact between engine and
drivetrain..

I understand that it's done when the clutch is disengaged. However, as I tend to open the throttle too much, when time comes to re-engage the clutch, i'm sometimes too high in RPMs and thus the bike actually accelerates a bit.

So. Is it that in the Twist of the Wrist video they were explaining how to engine brake ONLY, meaning they were not using the brake lever at all, and that this technic (of revving the engine a bit) is to be applied only when simply engine-braking, without using the brake lever? I'm having a hard time understanding that guy's speech over the noises of the video for some reason. I didn't think - but i'm a beginner - that you would engine brake only at any time when racing as I think it's a less efficient form of braking; if you send spend less time braking you spend more time going faster and shave some time off I would think.

[shisoshin]

if you watch that video esp the slow motion view from the front,
the rider is using the front brake as part of the technique..
also note when he extends his fingers over the brake lever,
and when he retracts the fingers back to the bar/throttle..

in my experience with 5 [now] road hondas, engine braking
is part of riding the motorcycle, simple as that..
my 250, 450, two 750/4's were ridden daily and on weekends
including fairly hard at times, and all just got better with age..
i was a bit obsessive with oil changes, perhaps, but if there was
some serious damage potential from 'normal' engine braking
then my hondas didnt suffer from it..

thats not to say i never used the throttle when downshifting,
but as i recall this would be part of quite high speed riding,
not typical suburban riding and average type riding..

you dont want to cause your rear wheel to jam up its and thus
the drivetrain and engines normal range of function..
thus matching engine, gears and wheel rotation could be
helped by using this sort of technique..

but mate, if youre having trouble learning it, as you say,
then in the real world and generally rational riding habits
its not something to get your balls in a knot about [ ]
if you find yourself changing down esp the lower gears
and revs screaming upwards and/or tyres screeching,
then it might be time to start thinking about how this
is happening and what you can do about it in your
riding habits.. otherwise, keep practicing somewhere
safe, and like anything, you will get better at it..

just separate in your mind normal road riding from
wringing everything out of the motorcycle such
as in racing type scenarios,, and enjoy
whatever riding you are doing...

[Rusty Shackleford]

Originally Posted by northernlights

I mean that when I brake with the brake pedal AND engine-brake at the same time, i don't naturally give a bit of throttle. When I learned driving a car they were teaching everyone to brake with both the brake pedal and the engine braking for more efficient braking (which has saved me from a few rear endings). I compare it against a car because on a car you can't press both the brake and gas pedals at the same time.

Oh, no, I don't gas and brake at the same time. You could theoretically cover/apply light pressure to the brake when downshifting, but I do it the same as in the car; I down shift then brake... you need both feet to do so. On the bike, if you're giving it too much throttle when downshifting, just note the maximum amount of throttle you'd ever use is the same amount of throttle you've decreased to when slowing down/engine braking to downshift (and not even that much). For example, if I'm in top gear and roll off the throttle to decelerate, sometimes I won't even change my throttle hand position. I just quickly shift down a gear. The reason the RPM's don't spike is because the throttle is barely open to begin with at that point and I only need enough to smoothly get down to 5th gear. It should be noted that I've tried doing this while accelerating, and that spikes the RPM's like crazy.