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Old 11-21-2012, 10:37 PM   #21
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say youre riding a dinkie [childs three wheeler] and push on the bar [left, say]
then the dinkie will follow the wheel ie, turning right.. [dinkie exaggerates]
but, where is your weight/mass and momentum going..
turn sharply and your mass continues forward, tending left..

ok, now its a single track vehicle,, [pushbike say] now push bar left
and rather than steering the rear wheels around [ala dinkie] now
you are 'bending' the single track [at the steering head, over front wheel]
to its right, causing similar momentum shift left but without the two
rear wheels [holding dinkie upright], the single track vehicle will
tend to lean into the direction of mass and momentum [left]..

take it as given that a single track vehicle will curve its movement
toward or into the direction of its lean..
so, having caused the bike to slightly lean/curve left by pushing left,
the bike will continue curving left unless you initiate opposite action..
so the wheel beneath the steering head will turn slightly, away from,
the curve causing slight lean into the curve, then turn following the lean
into, the curve.. [lots of text to describe a fairly simple reality]

also, aside from the strict physics etc, the motorcycle with wheels aligned
will respond to quite subtle changes in c of g and mass movement on it..
so even when you think you have only thought of, curving away from
your straight trajectory, there will be slight head movement as you
look towards your intended direction,, and/or any of a wide range of
other body/arms/hips/thighs etc movements relative to that curve
which will tend to continue movement into the curve..

everyone knows the feeling of 'just thinking left or right' to change direction..
point being that this is real, and also a subtle thing or process..

as other members have observed here, those who have been riding normally
for any length of time will have been initiating curves within this process..
its a bit like, say, knowing in which direction your bowel twists,
in order to expel its 5hit,, interesting, but not vital
for the process to happen..

[when you do know, however, your brain has just another potential tool
for increased, if subtle, potential for, 'more efficient' bowel movements...]
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:26 AM   #22
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I think the pushing/pulling while countersteering subject is covered in Kieth Code's Twist of the Wrist, but it's quite a while since I watched it, so I may be wrong.
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:00 PM   #23
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I just watched Fifth Gear TV show on Velocity. Kind of a Top Gear wannabe. One segment had the woman host (hostess?) learning to ride a speedway bike. She was being taught by several time world champ. They showed bits of video of her riding other bikes prior to this segment but it was clear that she didn't know what countersteering is! The reason they teach it in MSF courses is because it is counter intuitive. Saying push left=go left is easier than saying turn the bars to the right to go left. You are rotating the steering stem in the neck. The bike doesn't "care" how that force is applied. As the OP guessed, it is a teaching tool. That's all.
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:48 PM   #24
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There's no difference between pushing and pulling. In both cases you are making the same steering input.
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gallis View Post
There's no difference between pushing and pulling. In both cases you are making the same steering input.
The shift in body weight will be different - its not just about the input, its about how it is delivered.

Pushing will have you dip your shoulder into the corner = better lean = tighter cornering? Pulling on the outside bar will have you shift your a$$ towards that side = less lean = wider cornering?

Aufitt didn't elaborate on his assertion about pulling making for a wider track...maybe this is what he meant?

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Old 11-22-2012, 08:51 PM   #26
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all things being equal [which theyre not] method wouldnt matter,,
yet the subtleties of body movement from head and neck thru
hands, arms, shoulders, torso, hips, thighs, legs to toes
can and does influence c of g and where your, momentum
is going, relative to the bikes forward momentum..

try moving your head only, angle it opposite to usual,
and while you will likely make some compensating
movement elsewhere, just this alone can be felt..

probably everything that comes to mind as a possible
factor here would have some effect,, left or right handed,
side of road ridden [thus direction around roundabouts etc]
and any habits or relative skills or clumsiness anyone has
must add to the mix that must come together to ride
the motorcycle normally...

once you can whistle [say] no need to think about
which lip is pursed most or which facial muscles
are active/inactive,, you just, whistle...

how you press your opposite foot on its footpeg [eg]
also has influences and effects on motorcycle control,
but it isnt something an average rider needs to worry about..
same same for all body positioning..
practice makes perfect [as they say]..
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdangelo829 View Post
Thank you, I look forward to hearing what you find out on Friday.
Spent the day at the track, tested the theory, and also ran this by the instructors,
at no time do you pull the outside bar.

Keeping it simple, you only push the inside, to drop the tyre onto its side, as your body leads in the direction you want to go,

If you pull the outside bar it adds weight to the outside of the motorcycle where you dont want it, unloads the contact patch and the suspension cant do its work.

And yeah the bike cant hold a line.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aufitt View Post
Spent the day at the track, tested the theory, and also ran this by the instructors,
at no time do you pull the outside bar.

Keeping it simple, you only push the inside, to drop the tyre onto its side, as your body leads in the direction you want to go,

If you pull the outside bar it adds weight to the outside of the motorcycle where you dont want it, unloads the contact patch and the suspension cant do its work.

And yeah the bike cant hold a line.

Thanks for checking into this, getting an explanation that actually explains the dynamics for pushing as opposed to pulling shows the reasoning for doing this and goes to show you that you're never to "old" or "good" to keep learning.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:13 PM   #29
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Glad you posted the question,
as I didnt know myself having been told the wrong thing (inputs to both bars) for decades untill getting proper training over the past year.

But on Friday I did this for you guys and just found the photo!



I was being a smartass for the photographer (and the other riders & instructors haha)
Dont try this at home kids !
Front ran wide Immediately.. that is a 4th gear flatout corner so at least 70mph

*its fine to take the outside hand off, in fact in one of the training drills in the lower levels they tell us that we should be gripping the bars so lightly that the OUTSIDE hand can be taken off completely.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:38 PM   #30
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^And that shows the very same corner done correctly.

See my palms are open,
Feet, calves and thighs and hips are working hard but upper body weight (head & shoulder) is naturally dropping with the gentle inside push and helping the bike around the corner.
The suspension is settled mid stroke and doing its job,
rear tyre is loaded so hard its got a big fat contact patch and the maximum drive towards the direction I'm looking.

Happy to be corrected by an Xspurt,
but if that was a righthander(where throttle isnt needed) I could take the left hand off completely.
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Last edited by Aufitt; 11-25-2012 at 12:40 PM.
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