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CBR250R and Horsepower

29K views 35 replies 18 participants last post by  Aufitt 
#1 · (Edited)
[B]CBR250R and Horsepower[/B]

Hi folks new to the forums but not necessarily to motorcycles.

I have been scouring the internet in search of a better CBR250R (in a manner of speaking). I have come across discussions and forums on getting the CBR's HP benchmark into the 30-40 hp "Ninja" category as well as Top Speed. With all of the technology at our disposal and 2 years into the CBR's tenure it baffles me why The CBR250R hasn't surpassed this benchmark.

Several obstacles I have noticed.

1.) The CBR's rev limiter delemma 10,500 ish
2.) Compression ratios (stock 10:7:1)
3.) Gearing
4.) Weight
5.) Fuel Delivery

First: Rev Limiter; I haven't seen too much the way of getting around that one. I am surprised because isn't the rev limiter built into the fuel mapping of the ECU ? And if you can manually program your mapping there should be a way to override that. I understand "Dynojet's" ECU controller and software allows you to do this. Or am I wrong ?

2.) I've seen high compression piston kits (12:5:1) + different cams that should theoretically be good for an additional 10 hp at least. I'm wondering if rebuilding the bottom end of the motor (i.e. crank etc) would yield better results as well.

3.) I am aware of the rear sprocket trick that many have used which yields an extra 3-5mph in the top end (or so I'm told) .. this would make more sense after working the motor to turn higher RPM's as I am not aware of Honda making a different set of gears for this bike.

4.) Weight; It would be nice to see the CBR with an Aluminum frame I understand that would put a dent in our pocket book but hey I would mind paying an extra $2000 bucks if they could make that a reality.

Changing Exhaust and a few other things i understand can significantly help as well as helping the motor breath better.

5.) I was wondering are there bigger throttle bodies available if so getting more fuel to the cylinder is always a good way to build power.

Lastly, The Single Cylinder Moto3 4 stroke 1/4 bikes are a testament to the fact that high speeds can be achieved with proper engineering etc.

I understand that Yamaha and KTM will be getting their feet wet next year in the 1/4 litre class the YZF-R4 is Yamaha's offering and KTM is apparently bringing a rendition of their moto3 bike to the consumer mix. Wether this forces Honda's hand to up their game will be interesting to see.

Thanks guys.
 
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#2 ·
I very much doubt you will see 40hp from this bike, even if you spend big $$$.
Have a search through the threads & see some of the mods that have been done & still don't hit 40hp or buy a cbr250rr 45hp no problem ;)
 
#3 · (Edited)
You can move the limiter up if you get a dynojet PCv fuel/ ignition controller. I recently got one. Sounds to me like you need a CBR500 or 600 if you want over 30 HP. Also what is rebuilding the bottom end " crank" going to gain? I slightly modded mine over this winter by shaving the head for higher compression, advanced the cam timing to make up the the material I took off the head and ported and polished the head which had some wicked castings in it. I have yet to get it to the dyno but I can bet it wont be much more than 30 HP. It also has a pipe and the said fuel controller.
 
#5 · (Edited)
... Lastly, The Single Cylinder Moto3 4 stroke 1/4 bikes are a testament to the fact that high speeds can be achieved with proper engineering etc.

I understand that Yamaha and KTM will be getting their feet wet next year in the 1/4 litre class the YZF-R4 is Yamaha's offering and KTM is apparently bringing a rendition of their moto3 bike to the consumer mix. Wether this forces Honda's hand to up their game will be interesting to see...
You do realize that the Honda NSF250R is a $29,000.00 bike... It's not even like comparing apples & oranges... bikes like the Honda & KTM Moto3 machines come from very different orchards, where relatively small quantities of unobtainium are harvested to produce a handful of race bikes, and only the very best riders need apply. The so called "road version" of the KTM Moto3 bike, from what I've read is to be built in India, and will be a far cry from it's Moto3 brethren. Pretty hard to build small displacement, cutting edge race bikes for the general masses, and then expect those masses to pay a price rivaling top of the line One Liter sportbikes. I sure wouldn't.
 
#7 ·
Unobtanium
Thats funny. Yes I'm acutely aware of the 30k price tag of the NSF250R The MD250H is significantly less. about 12K and uses the CRF250X motor which cranks out about 35 +

This idea of "Unobtanium" is silly and you're not looking at the whole picture. The 250CC Enduro bikes which are SUB 10k and cranking out between 30 50hp is proof positive that one doesn't need to enter into a financial sink hole.

The 88-90's VTR250R were 35hp + (approx) The whole purpose behind putting a single cylinder over the 35hp threshold is to keep the bike light while increasing the power to weight ratio. I can see this is going turn into a "buy another bike" diatribe. If Honda can make a 250cc Single that cranks out 35-40 hp in an enduro aluminum frame that costs less than 9 grand (FOR THE MASSES) it stands to reason if there was a demand for a 250cc sport street bike they would build it. I can buy a larger displacement bike .. I don't want to ...I like the agility, size and weight of the CBR250R.

Some have suggested dropping s 250X motor into the CBR but then there is the issue of gear ratios from the X motor... are they swappable ?
 
#8 ·
Thats funny. Yes I'm acutely aware of the 30k price tag of the NSF250R The MD250H is significantly less. about 12K and uses the CRF250X motor which cranks out about 35 +

This idea of "Unobtanium" is silly and you're not looking at the whole picture. The 250CC Enduro bikes which are SUB 10k and cranking out between 30 50hp is proof positive that one doesn't need to enter into a financial sink hole.

The 88-90's VTR250R were 35hp + (approx) The whole purpose behind putting a single cylinder over the 35hp threshold is to keep the bike light while increasing the power to weight ratio. I can see this is going turn into a "buy another bike" diatribe. If Honda can make a 250cc Single that cranks out 35-40 hp in an enduro aluminum frame that costs less than 9 grand (FOR THE MASSES) it stands to reason if there was a demand for a 250cc sport street bike they would build it. I can buy a larger displacement bike .. I don't want to ...I like the agility, size and weight of the CBR250R.

Some have suggested dropping s 250X motor into the CBR but then there is the issue of gear ratios from the X motor... are they swappable ?
Unfortunately this bike isnt designed as a street sports bike. It's an entry level bike for commuting and those on restricted licenses and the engine reflects that. Just because it happens to have fairings dont think it is intended to be a sports bike from stock. If you sit on the 250, and a 600 you will feel seating position, the 600 is a sports bike and has an agressive stance, the 250 has a casual seating position more in line with a naked bike. Hence the many and varied threads related to lowering the bars and moving up the rear sets to bring the stance in line with a sports bike.

It has the potential to be a nifty small displacement sports bike, but that is not what it is intended as from stock and everything about it reflects that
 
#9 ·
your 5 point make quite a good analysis of the issues...
thus the only cost effective way to go and get there seems to go for a bore up kit. i like everything that you stated above about this bike. saying this, riding two up some power has to be found as i see it. i was ready to go for tuning when i bought it two years ago. i´d just like to follow a beaten trail. as most of the riders seem to enjoy the bike as it is, not much comes up for a bike sold worldwide for two years by now...
cheers
 
#10 ·
I think if it's your goal to "extract" the best performance from the cbr, regardless of the cost, that's entirely your prerogative. In fact, if somebody have me $10k, I probably would too, but I think it's hard to expect Honda to produce this and at the same time pitch this bike to a predominately beginner, and commuter types..


Sent from Motorcycle.com App
 
#11 ·
A 2012 crf250x is only 30hp, it's not built to be a sedate learner street bike with awesome fuel economy, it's built to flog on a track/trail with no worries about passing strict emission laws. Yes it would be nice to have a cbr250r with 40+hp that's why I have the cbr250rr.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Maybe a much better question would be....

When is Yamaha going to finally come to their senses and swap their WR250R/X single into a YZF-R125 chassis? I would be interested in a bike that put out almost 28 rear-wheel stock hp (see WR250X dyno link below) - yes folks - about 3-4 more rear-wheel hp than the twin-cylinder 250 Ninja - yet boasts unmatched reliability (26,000 mile valve adjustment intervals!) addictive powerband (11,500 rpm redline), fuel-injection, great fuel economy, weight of around 300 lbs wet (about 60lbs less than the CBR250R), and clothed in such a sexy outfit. I have a WR250R, and the engine is awesome. Unlike the CBR250R, the WR just keeps pulling hard all the way to redline.

This would give a YZF-R250 a theoretical power-to-weight advantage over the Ninja 300.

Ninja 300.....35hp.....384lbs....10.97lbs/hp
YZF-R250....28hp.....300lbs....10.71lbs/hp

Quarter-Liter Supermoto Shootout - Motorcycle.com


Mike
 
#17 ·
Maybe a much better question would be....

When is Yamaha going to finally come to their senses and swap their WR250R/X single into a YZF-R125 chassis?...
Rumor has it that Yamaha may be working on a WR250X engine based YZF-R250, for a possible 2014 model year release... I really can't see Yamaha being left behind in the 1/4 liter sport bike class... just as the other manufacturers have seen the writing on the wall, I'd think that Yamaha will want a slice of this growing market. They would certainly raise the bar a few more notches in this class.
 
#18 ·
it seems like most of the options on tuning the 250 cbr have been discussed already and those members capable of real input grow tired of repeating themselves. so within the displacement the general answer is - it can´t be done easy.
here in thailand they can tune the crap out of small displacement engines. they even have scooter drag races. these little beasts leave you sooo in the dust. if the bike was not so crazy expensive for the locals - i think the miracle (40 hp) would happen right here...
cheers
 
#23 · (Edited)
I have to say thats not entirely true. The CBR250R is marketed (and set up) as a "commuter" or entry level bike yes ... the design/engineering of the bike tells a slightly different story.

You can hardly compare this bike to something like a TU250X which IS strictly a "commuter" bike or even a scooter for that matter. The CBR250R has a trellis frame (found in racing chassis's), the geometry and positioning of the motor is similar to it's moto3 counterparts, The mono shock pro-link rear suspension comes directly from Racing DNA. The bike was designed with "racing" in mind which is why there is a whole racing series dedicated to the class.

The CBR250R IS a Racing Bike that has been essentially detuned and set up as a daily commuter and this is how it is marketed. Good gas mileage and "fun to ride". Honda released this bike on the cusp of the new Moto3 transition from 2 to 4 stroke. It's somewhat obvious (at least to me) that they knew what they were doing.

Now that the "Cat is out of the bag" (so to speak) the other Manufacturers want in. EBR (Erik Buell Racing) is apparently working on a 250cc single sport bike and Yamaha appears to have one ready for 2014 (YZF-R4). There is also rumor of Ducati building a 250cc single sport bike (This is what put the company on the map to begin with) If all these rumors are a shadow of things to come; the 250cc sport bike is going to dominate and may even supplant the 600's (to a degree). Most of us don't have the luxury of spending 12k on sport bike let alone being able to afford the insurance on it. The Manufacturers are aware of this and they are rethinking their marketing strategy. Kawasaki was smart

Have you seen the Megelli 250R ? That bike looks absolutely stunning though it's a shame it has the Spector of China surrounding it. If Ducati or anyone makes a 40 - 50 + hp 250cc sport bike capable of 130 mph that looks anything like the Megelli and lets say $6,000 - $8000 price point I would bet you a years a salary that 600 super-sport dudes would get wise and drop those bikes like a bad habit.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I have to say thats not entirely true. The CBR250R is marketed (and set up) as a "commuter" or entry level bike yes ... the design/engineering of the bike tells a slightly different story.

You can hardly compare this bike to something like a TU250X which IS strictly a "commuter" bike or even a scooter for that matter. The CBR250R has a trellis frame (found in racing chassis's), the geometry and positioning of the motor is similar to it's moto3 counterparts, The mono shock pro-link rear suspension comes directly from Racing DNA. The bike was designed with "racing" in mind which is why there is a whole racing series dedicated to the class.

The CBR250R IS a Racing Bike that has been essentially detuned and set up as a daily commuter and this is how it is marketed. Good gas mileage and "fun to ride". Honda released this bike on the cusp of the new Moto3 transition from 2 to 4 stroke. It's somewhat obvious (at least to me) that they knew what they were doing.

Now that the "Cat is out of the bag" (so to speak) the other Manufacturers want in. EBR (Erik Buell Racing) is apparently working on a 250cc single sport bike and Yamaha appears to have one ready for 2014 (YZF-R4). There is also rumor of Ducati building a 250cc single sport bike (This is what put the company on the map to begin with) If all these rumors are a shadow of things to come; the 250cc sport bike is going to dominate and may even supplant the 600's (to a degree). Most of us don't have the luxury of spending 12k on sport bike let alone being able to afford the insurance on it. The Manufacturers are aware of this and they are rethinking their marketing strategy. Kawasaki was smart

Have you seen the Megelli 250R ? That bike looks absolutely stunning though it's a shame it has the Spector of China surrounding it. If Ducati or anyone makes a 40 - 50 + hp 250cc sport bike capable of 130 mph that looks anything like the Megelli and lets say $6,000 - $8000 price point I would bet you a years a salary that 600 super-sport dudes would get wise and drop those bikes like a bad habit.
I think the only issue with what you're saying is that the cost of building (for instance) a new CBR250RR (250cc 4 cylinder with 42 hp) is not much different than the cost of building a CBR600RR. North Americans are in love with the fantasy of owning a 250cc inline 4, however when it costs about as much as a 600cc inline 4 - we suddenly feel like we are getting less for our money (for THAT kind of money I could get a 600 super-sport!?!?). And we don't buy. The impression is that more displacement invariably amounts to a "better" bike in virtually every way. You won't be able to sell a North American on better handling, 19,000 rpm redlines, gear-driven cams, lighter weight, better fuel economy, and cheaper insurance. It doesn't matter. We tend to rigidly perseverate like Nigel Tufnel from Spinal Tap when describing how his guitar amplifier is better - by repeating - "It's one louder" and "These go to 11". Such heuristics seem to resonate with North American riders. :)

Mike
 
#24 ·
I don't think even a 50hp 250 is going to make 600's obsolete. First of all, those 600s are making over 100 hp stock. Secondly, insurance companies are not stupid - when 250cc bikes are getting crashed by squids going 120 mph they're going to cost just as much to insure.

I've spent my whole life turning gasoline into fun so I've learned how to make effective use of my gas alchemy money. Spending a few thousand dollars in performance mods on a CBR250R that's ridden on the street is a waste of money. There's choices that don't cost a whole lot more that are up there in the 85 - 100 hp range - an FZ8 comes to mind. Heck, I could've bought a brand new FZ1 last year for $8000 and that's a 120+ hp bike.

Separating street from track - the whole point of this bike is sport cheap. It's an awesome, nimble, great looking bike with impeccable built quality and finish that can be owned and ridden cheaply. It's a bike an experienced rider can have a blast pushing it to the bike's limits and not risking an illuminated taxi ride to the graybar hotel. OK, sure, on the track you're looking for every pony and losing every ounce of weight you can but that's a different discussion. For some guys I see, if they'd just push away from the buffet more often it would be the equivalent of $2,000 in performance mods (1 hp = 7 lbs).

There must be a clinical diagnosis for the mental illness that makes people spend stupid money on things they are overly committed to....
 
#32 ·
Live and Let live

There must be a clinical diagnosis for the mental illness that makes people spend stupid money on things they are overly committed to....
This certainly appears to be true for Alcoholics, Drug Addicts, Lobbyists and Bankers... yet people still seem to be content to put up with them.... I hardly think dropping a few grand on something you can at the very least call your own or admire in your garage merits this what I would diagnose as petty contempt.
 
#28 ·
A stock CBR250R has a p/w ratio of about 14:1.
A stock CBR600RR has a p/w ratio of about 3.8:1
and a stock S1000RR BMW has a p/w ratio of 2.3:1

You can spend crazy money on a CBR250R and not get to 10:1 and you can spend twice what an S1000RR costs to get close to what you can buy and ride off the lot with in the BMW. Displacement is always king.
 
#33 ·
It has an internal combustion engine just like a Formula One racecar! Zoom! Racing DNA! A single cylinder just like Burt Monroe's land speed record bike! Holy shhhhhheeeeaaat!

I don't even know where to begin with your pathological defense of your delusional thesis. Sorry to be so condescending but you need to be smacked in the mouth with a wake-up here. This bike is not even competitive with 10 year-old Ninja 250s.

It is a very compromised bike.
 
#34 ·
My head hurts at some of the power figures and prices quoted in this thread.

If you think the Yamaha will be a 4cyl like the MC22 was you are dreaming,

A Moto3 bike is made by Honda, and that's the only thing in common with the MC41.


A Ninja puts out about 26hp, tuning and $$$ will get it to 32 and you still have a shocking power to weight ratio and a frame made of plasticine, however they are a sh!t load of fun to ride like the MC41 BECAUSE of their low hp.

A Ninja 300 puts out 34.5
AreaP is getting a few more hp out of them, probably the best value for money small bike atmo but they weigh as much as a 600.


A crf250 is a highly strung little single and still not 30hp
even with a lot of work it just gets there,
Honda CRF250X dyno results | South Bay Riders
not one of Hondas best engines, the 450 is better.

The WR250 is one of the best and still well under 30hp,
http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/250hp.jpg
That is the single Yamaha should use but bet they wont, it needs to sell to the masses for a low price like the Ninja and MC41.
We will get some dodgy Indian built thing like the 150 anyway.

A VTR has about 25 tops with a pipe and tuned to suit, the humble MC41 does everything it can do and more.
http://www.rooracing.com/Vtr250.jpg
its an expensive heavy twin, but still a nice bike. the early ones made 28-30 and died of head problems.


Plenty of MC22's around and $3500 will get a nice one now ,and you have 38-40hp still slow but they are fun.

Rider skill is where is at, especially on anything under 60hp.
 
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