Yes, you are absolutely right. Our system is far from perfect and the inequities in PBS are an important part of that - as Bernie Banton knew only too well and lobbied hard against.
Personally I'm concerned about the slow but relentless move towards privatisation of medicine and health insurance in Australia. Its gone far enough already IMO, with the result that:
(a) care is getting more expensive (both for individuals and tax payers) as private insurance companies need to take their fat profits from it, and
(b) there is a growing disparity between quality care in private, paid-for, for-profit clinics and accessible care via Medicare which risks becoming low-quality care. Despite what Putoff thinks, good medical care shouldn't be the privilege of the richest few of the population and I'd hate to see Australia become like the US.
I've been extremely lucky and I recognise and appreciate it.
Putoff, I've worked hard all my life (and still do, despite a terminal physical condition), but I'm not rich and certainly not rich enough to pay for the type of private healthcare you advocate for, which runs in to the hundreds of thousands of dollars. But I've made my contribution and I continue to do so.
So, just out of curiosity, do you think that I should:
(a) get good healthcare, and continue to be a productive and contributing member of society? Or,
(b) stay at home until I'm dead?
Do you think this makes me avaricious, a coward and a thief?
Really?
I wonder what you would think if you lived in my shoes.
If you think that the people of your country, should without any say in the matter, be forced to pay for your health care, then yes; you are a thief. I'm sorry if that small dose of reality hurts; we live in a world in which evil has been normalized. How many people have to live below their means, and forgo what they've earned, so that you can have what's theirs? How is your life any more important than theirs, and what right do you have to take from them? Answer: It isn't, and you don't.
A coward? Yes, that too. You don't go into homes, with a weapon, and threaten the family yourself, do you? You don't yell "Give me your jewelry, and your money! What did you make this year? I want 30%" at people, do you? You let the government do your stealing for you.
Is that to say you should sit at home and die? No. There are two points I'd like to make here.
First; I'm not a fan of corporate medicine, where excessive profit is reaped from the industry. Medical insurance drives up costs, and inflates the demand for services. Medical device, equipment manufacturers, and drug companies hold prices high, and prevent alternative treatments and theories from reaching patients. Medicine should be for the good of the people, and a doctor should be interested in serving people, not in his payment, which should be seen as a side effect of his medicine, not the goal. The other side of the coin is government, and it's regulations, that ensure that patient expenses are high, to pay for regulation compliance, including costly malpractice insurance.
Second; Social structures need to be rebuilt, like local communities, and family. No one wants to be an active member of their local community institutions, no one wants to work for the good of their extended family. At least, not amongst European colonial populations. Many other ethnic populations do work as cohesive units within their families in many places, buying up businesses and even whole suburban streets. People need to learn to work together amongst themselves, without the heavy hand of government. Diaspora euros wouldn't dream of being constrained by such things as community and family... they want to be free of those responsibilities, and instead rely on others being robbed to support them, in the event that anything bad whatsoever should happen to them.
You should rely on those around you, and on human kindness. Generosity from people with guns pointed at them (like during an IRS raid), isn't generosity, it's compliance with robbery.
I'm not claiming to be perfect myself; the system has made monsters of us all. We need to pull away from this criminality, not justify it endlessly.
Feel free to sit down and read back through what you just wrote.
We'll wait here...
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If you think that something is I've written is stupid, then please feel free to tell me exactly what. Don't make an attack against my position or person, and try to phrase it in such a way that I can't defend it/myself. Make yourself clear, Top.
I think we need to move away from corporate care, and government funding, to local/community care, and family/personal/community funding. Is that stupid?
I don't feel that any person has the right to take from another. If I was hungry, and I came into your home, without your consent, looking for a meal, you'd say I was thief. If I'm hungry, and so I ask the government to tax you money, and create a food program to feed me, what then? Isn't it still stealing? I don't have the right to do that.
If I came to your door, and I said "I'm hungry, please sir, can you spare anything?" you would have a decision to help me, or send me away. It is your RIGHT to have that decision; to choose the manner in which your property is used. I am all in favor of private food banks, and of private giving. I am not a selfish man; I wouldn't steal from you even if I was starving. How is it right to call me selfish, because I myself don't want to be stolen from.
What nonsense! I exist not because of civilization, but because of an individual choice each of my parents made to procreate. I no more exist because of civilization than does any other life on this planet. Collectivist rubbish.
Civilization is merely the interaction of individual humans, in a way that is respectful to the rights of all. When one steals from another, or is in any way disrespectful, we call them uncivilized.
The government is in that way, the greatest threat to civilization; it steals from, murders and imprisons whoever it pleases. The more power government has, the more uncivilized a nation becomes; USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea, etc.
It is unfortunate that some citizens have deemed it right for their needs to be taken care of, by having leviathan take from others. You will never get around this. In the end, you will have to admit, that you would prefer to steal than to suffer. No, it is worse, you would rather steal than fear that you might suffer in the future. Such is your cowardice, your avarice, and your progressive criminality.
You call me an avaricious coward and thief, I simply say you're deluding yourself if you think you're any different.
You are not the independent product of your independent parents. You exist and thrive because of the Leviathan.
You survived infancy and went to school because of our society, you thieving, cowardly greedy collectivist!
Whew, now that I've been rescued you can pull in the lifeline, guys!
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If you think that the people of your country, should without any say in the matter, be forced to pay for your health care, then yes; you are a thief.
Really? Your logic is flawed. As I stated, I HAVE and STILL DO contribute to my healthcare; it's called tax and I'm happy to pay it. As I said, its kept me alive - and still paying taxes! It also keeps thousands of others alive and being productive members of my society.
YOU however do not (or at least appear to want to do everything to avoid) pay taxes. My taxes buy me the privilege of utilising common goods. I don't think that when I use those common goods that makes me a thief.
However, if/when you DO use those common goods without paying for them, then in my view that makes YOU the thief. A free loader. And the greedy, avaricious one. Now there's a small dose of reality that might hurt.
And don't tell me you don't use common goods: you ride a motorbike. Roads, traffic management systems, law enforcement, and yes the emergency room you are taken to if you come off the bike, are all common goods YOU USE - many of them EVERY DAY (god willing not the emergency room though :-) ).
There is a deep whiff of hypocrisy here my friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by putoff
A coward? Yes, that too. You don't go into homes, with a weapon, and threaten the family yourself, do you? You don't yell "Give me your jewelry, and your money! What did you make this year? I want 30%" at people, do you? You let the government do your stealing for you.
But I'm not robbing any one and nothing is being stolen. I'm paying my share, although, once again, it appears that you are not. I'm not sure how that makes me the bad guy here. I do expect my neighbours to pay their share, according to their means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by putoff
Is that to say you should sit at home and die? No. There are two points I'd like to make here.
Unfortunately your two points don't explain what I should do INSTEAD of stay home and die, except that "You should rely on those around you, and on human kindness." How does that provide healthcare? My family are not doctors and nurses (indeed they live a thousand kms away so relying on them is not so easy). Hospitals cost money to build and run, doctors cannot live and work for free, MRI machines and medicines aren't made for free. It's a nice utopian idea, but it is fantasy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by putoff
How many people have to live below their means, and forgo what they've earned, so that you can have what's theirs? How is your life any more important than theirs, and what right do you have to take from them? Answer: It isn't, and you don't.
Now lets deal with this gem, shall we? I'm lucky enough to have been born and live in one of the richest countries in the world (as have you - the richest on a total GDP amount; mine higher on a per capita basis). We do have poverty, some homelessness and our treatment of indigenous people has been awful. But on the whole, our society functions well and nearly everyone goes to bed with a roof over their head and food in their belly all of the time.
It is not like this for one fifth of the world's population.
Those people--including the poor in Australia--are NOT the ones who are helping foot my medical bills. It is other people LIKE ME (and presumably you) who earn money and therefore can afford to pay taxes -- through our individually small but collectively large contributions -- that keep OUR society in the happy shape it is.
Now, if you would prefer to live some in a society where you don't have to pay taxes, perhaps you should go see what it is like to live in rural Ethiopia. Before you bark at me, I HAVE DONE THIS. Go to work with farmers in rural Ethiopia. Most work 10 or 12 hours a day or more, 7 days a week, JUST TO SURVIVE. Harvesting is back-breaking work by hand with sickles. They are not poor because they are "lazy." They are not sucking off some government teat. They are poor because they live in a dysfunctional society. These people do not pay tax. They live with that individual freedom you seem to long for. But they also barely have roads to get to market. This makes it even harder for them to get ahead. They do not have electricity to their two-room mud-hut homes. This too makes it hard for their children to study (to learn and get ahead) and their wives to prepare food for them (so they have enough energy to work harder). They do not have access to clinics or hospitals or nursing care. This means when they get sick their kids do not eat. They DO rely on their families and kin for survival. It is all they have. Whether you understand or admit it or not, THIS IS THE KIND OF LIFE YOU ARE WISHING FOR. Individuals left purely to their own devices. And no collection of taxes by the government. (Though the government might well steal other things from you like your land but that's a different set of issues.) I have been there. It is not pretty. And I am happy to make my contribution so our society can have all the public goods you take for granted. You should be too. (And actually, when you're in the city and earning decent money and are paying taxes to the regime, it's not always pretty either but that too is a different story.)
One thing I'll add here is that my work in Ethiopia is about trying to address root causes of poverty, hunger and food insecurity. So I find it pretty offensive that you suggest that I'm a selfish, greedy coward. But whether or not you hold on to that opinion of me is irrelevant. I am trying to make the best contribution I can with the time I have allotted to me in this life and I am, and will remain, proud of that.
There is one alternative for you. I have also worked in Saudi Arabia. Fascinating country. They don't pay taxes either. They don't have to, and they are not completely f*cked up like Ethiopia because the state has an eye popping amount of oil money. This money is used by the government in a social contract that ensures domestic stability and social compliance in return for a post-pregnancy-sized swollen government teat to suck upon. If you want to avoid paying taxes, go and work there... but you have to give up all your values of individual freedom, including your ability to express your misinformed opinions on forums like this.
Contrary to your imagination, you can't actually have everything.
Taxes + public infrastructure + a vote = pretty bl00dy good.
Last edited by ozbenno; 11-17-2012 at 05:39 AM.
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If your health service is paid for by tax, from everyone, in the long run, after more hospitals are built etc. it should become cheaper for everyone, because far more people are paying into it. Another answer would be to Nationalise the whole health service, as well as other essential services, like water, electricity and gas. This would make them cheaper for all, as they then don't need to make a profit for shareholders, they just need to break even. Gas, electricity and water has all been privatised in this country, since the 1980's, and they are all now far more expensive, because the company's need to make a profit. When water was privatised, everyone's water bill tripled overnight. There are some people in this country now, that go without heating, because they can't afford it.
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