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Old 12-25-2012, 01:35 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by NSU View Post
No one's coming for your guns, cowboys. And the Communist Mexican paratroopers won't be landing either.
The ironic thing is if they were coming, they'd be carrying American-made assault weapons! . . . Wolverines!!!!!

Traditionally, congress will link gun control to an unrelated issue to either get it through or ensure it doesn't go through. The call it compromise, it amounts to political cover. It follows the political principal of "If everyone hates it, it must be right".
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #72
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I can remember a time that seems not too long ago, when you would stop in at the local gun shop on a Saturday morning on the way to the range, to pick up a few boxes of trap loads and there would be the regulars there, the old duffers wearing heavy wool plaid coats, some younger guys, dressed in Carhartt's (which were more than ready for the wash) and Mossy Oak ball caps, hanging out and telling tall tales of the monster bull elk that got away, or debating what the best all around cartridge for mule deer was, or what the latest .22LR cartridge from Eley would group at 100 yards on paper. It was a place that felt like something from the pages of Sports Afield, Outdoor Life, or Field & Stream. It was a place for outdoorsmen, and boys growing into outdoorsmen. A place where the outdoor life tradition was handed down, from one generation to the next.

Those days seem to be from a bygone era. I stopped in at one of the local gun shops the other day to pick up a box of target grade .22LR... most of the customers there looked like who you might expect to see in the video game section of a movie rental store... semi-goth, skin head neo-nazi types, tats from wrist to arm pit, buying up .223 ammo and 30 round mags like there was no tomorrow... a few of the other customers were younger women, who looked as though if someone were to say "boo", would shoot first, and ask questions later. The back wall which would usually have some AR-15's on display, was barren. A couple of the skin head types were buying up some Zombie targets, which I'm told by the owner of the shop are all the current rage. I asked him when the last time he sold a bolt action rifle, chambered in something like .300 Winchester Magnum, or 7 mm Remington Magnum (all one would need for hunting Rocky Mountain elk)... he had to pause and think about it, "maybe 1 or 2 in the past year" he said. He kind of shook his head, and just said "Times have changed".

Last edited by MotoMike; 12-25-2012 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Typos
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:48 PM   #73
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Long gun sales are legal under federal law at age 18, those weapons include assault rifles.

Peak incidence for onset of schizophrenia occurs slightly later:

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Old 12-25-2012, 03:51 PM   #74
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I asked him when the last time he sold a bolt action rifle, chambered in something like .300 Winchester Magnum, or 7 mm Remington Magnum (all one would need for hunting Rocky Mountain elk)... he had to pause and think about it, "maybe 1 or 2 in the past year" he said. He kind of shook his head, and just said "Times have changed".
That's where the NRA has taken the industry. (I have it on good authority that the .300 WM is a fine cartridge)
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:15 AM   #75
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Now, I know I always say this, only to have a poo-storm occur right after; but hats off to Wynne for being the 1st in cbr250.net history to ever have a "gun thread" reach 8 pages without erupting into another quarter-liter-rider's civil war. I don't know if it's the Christmas spirit, but it's pretty cool we took a topic that normally ends up locked and had intelligent conversation with it. Hope you folks all had a good holiday. Santa didn't bring any firearms, but my lady did buy me a freakin' Pinlock for my helmet! She's a keeper.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:05 AM   #76
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If Luke closes this thread we can always have a religion discussion.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:11 AM   #77
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If Luke closes this thread we can always have a religion discussion.
Oh Lordy Lordy, that will lead us all down a long crooked road off into hell...
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Last edited by live_to_ride; 12-26-2012 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:42 AM   #78
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I think that this forum has improved a great deal over the time I've been a member. I put this down to the decent members that were here when I joined are mainly still here, we've had more decent folk join, and the mods have dealt with a few of the not so respectful people. I think that as long as we treat each other with respect, and those who don't are dealt with by the mods, there's no reason why we all can't discuss anything. Freedom of speech comes with a responsibility to respect other peoples views, even if you strongly disagree with them. Anyway, I'd just like to say that I'm proud to be a member of this online community, and I hope it will flourish in the future. Thanks everyone.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:45 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
Now, I know I always say this, only to have a poo-storm occur right after; but hats off to Wynne for being the 1st in cbr250.net history to ever have a "gun thread" reach 8 pages without erupting into another quarter-liter-rider's civil war. I don't know if it's the Christmas spirit, but it's pretty cool we took a topic that normally ends up locked and had intelligent conversation with it. Hope you folks all had a good holiday. Santa didn't bring any firearms, but my lady did buy me a freakin' Pinlock for my helmet! She's a keeper.
Just to respond a bit. I think most of those outside the USA look with a mix of both envy and horror with towards the US. I'm certainly not speaking for all of us - but, I guess some will share my outlook. There will certainly be America haters, but I can hardly begin to explain the futility of such a stance as I think anything will bring both blessings and curses.

If I were a 'Murican, I'd be reluctant to trade in my firearms as well. But not for the reasons that I often hear. The guard against tyranny argument is in my view, often used, flawed. As if citizens with assault rifles can do something meaningful against armoured vehicles like an MBT or against drones. Next to that, it would serve only as a pretext for preventive genocide.

Or the safety argument; it's kind of a circle argument - criminals have guns, so we need more guns, to protect is from all the other guns. In (continental) Europe a large influx of guns came with the Balkan wars and the easier flow of contraband within the Schengen area. But still, petty thiefs have a hard time acquiring a weapon and it's something mostly reserved to the more 'mob' forms of criminal activity - countries here are, factually, safer in terms of the amount of criminal activity than the US. Even if criminals have a weapon, they generally have a hard time training in the use of the weapon - which makes them far less effective than wacked up kiddo's who have spent hours with their AR's on the shooting range.

So do away with weapons? I think that wouldn't solve much. Much of the safety here is also in terms of preventing people from slipping into criminality or isolation. Looking at countries like Sweden or Denmark, which I see as beacon for my own country (yeah, I'm a Social Democrat / Labour) in terms of their organisation of welfare - kind of reveals a society with a lot of trust between people and very low criminality. I'm not saying those countries are paradise, but they're doing a very decent job.

Shouldn't the essence be why we all enjoyed shooting with a BB gun, namely a tad of sportmanship and the boyish obsession with just shooting things? And can't that be achieved with a handgun or bolt action rifle like an old Mauser? Not to glorify violence at itself, but as something which is just a fun activity? Because I get the idea that America is arming itself for some kind of civil war, just pointing at the 'I don't trust anyone but myself'-mentality that some here postulate.

I truly fear for the US to go down such a path - I think it would be a tragedy for, what is still, but increasingly less so, a country that gave hope and a future to many (I guess this is a tad different for South-America, but alas) countries. The 50's had many drawbacks and things we shouldn't wish back for (racism, misogyny), but we could do with the community spirit of that time: of working together instead of distrusting, of collaboration instead of 'I do whatever the hell I want'.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:45 AM   #80
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Tyrian, as usual, you have some insightful observations.

I think the "tyranny defense" argument is about 80% empty rationalization in the minds of many people in modern times. Our government indeed possesses weapons so far beyond civilian capability it's almost irrelevant for the individual. The interesting part is how that ties into our 2nd amendment. To me, it seems pretty clear the purpose is the states have a right to protect themselves from federal power via their own militia. The reason that point is so important, and confusing to many people, is because America was built to run from the bottom up, not the top down as countries have traditionally been run elsewhere in the world. For example, the states have the power to do away with the Federal government if they want to, where as the Feds have no such power over the states. This penetrates American culture down to the individual level. There's a long standing tradition to challenge the notion of "taking one for the team". Our culture has a history of " freedom over safety". Controversy arises when the crazies have access to weapons used to carry out mass-murder. If you don't build a proverbial dam somewhere, you get into a situation where people obtain increasingly powerful weapons that far exceed personal self-defense and only purpose is offensive carnage. This is where many Americans, even pro-self-defense ones like myself, are readily willing to talk safety and sanity.

This transitions well into the "safety argument". I don't think, and will have a hard time being convinced, that anyone should have an equalizing line of defense taken from them in the event of, say, a home invasion, and be forced to wait with their fingers crossed for the authorized public defenders to arrive. The common misconception that people think about Americans is that this means we don't feel safe here. That's not true. We do. America is getting statistically safer as a whole all the time. I have several foreign friends I hang out with often and they say they're surprised at how safe it is actually. They say they want to stay here because you can walk around in big cities at night and not have to worry about being mugged (FWIW, they're from Brazil and India). I understand your point about criminals having access to guns, which here, they still will, same as they do with drugs, prostitution, anything on the black market. When I was growing up, marijuana was illegal in all states, but you could buy it from a kid at almost any high school... and these are kids. There are ways to combat criminals preemptively here. Perhaps further restrict the classifications of guns that can be bought, do away with all unregistered sales, increase the penalty for having an unregistered gun, increase the penalty for use of a firearm to commit a crime, etc. Plenty of folks have ideas that still allow for personal protection while raising the stakes for criminal activity.

I'll end on the "trust issue". I don't think Americans have a hard time trusting each other. Wherever you go, the vast, vast majority of people are completely unarmed. The idea that we're all walking around flashing heat, looking at everyone surrounding us wondering "are they gonna try to hurt me?" is laughably false. People are people, the world around. 99.99% of us would rather not deal with issues of lethal self-defense constantly. I personally find it depressing. In reality land, we all just want to do our jobs, hang out with friends and family, go see that new comedy movie everyone is talking about, etc., and not worry about it. Again, I think self-defense is like wearing your riding gear. Ideally, it'll never, ever be necessary, but when it is, it could safe your life. I'm no gun-nut. more a moderate like some of the others who have chimed in so far. Safety and potential-for-mass-killing are 2 totally different things, and I think most of us understand that.

(I still wanna know how Canada manages to do so well with it. I've always admired that about them.)
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