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Old 12-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #1
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Default Time for change?

After the slaughter at Sandy Hook school, America's firearms debate intensifies - Americas - World - The Independent

I haven't posted this article to start a huge slanging match, just to promote a respectful debate.

A polite request to the Mods.

Please don't delete this thread, just deal with any individual posts that are disrespectful or break forum rules.

Thank You.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:23 PM   #2
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Gun control will never happen, and the NRA is pointless.

It is clearly laid out in our constitution, I dont know why there is even a debate on it.

If you want to see how well gun control works, move to chicago.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:42 PM   #3
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I've lived in America all of my life, so it's hard to say. The big issue, in my mind, is that illegal guns are already illegal; and by definition, laws only stop law abiding citizens from action. What I suspect may happen is that peaceful people will be at the mercy of armed criminals, should any attempt at a "ban" take place.

The most import thing to note, IMO, is that what most people mean when they "I wish guns were banned" is actually "I wish guns didn't exist at all"... and those are 2 very different things. The 1st order of business is acknowledging that they do exist, possessed by the "good guys" and "bad guys" alike. All other conversation is theoretical, and possibly irrelevant otherwise.

I don't think any country specifically has a "gun" problem at its core so much as a "violence" problem. No one, any where, likes being shot and killed... and having it happen to children is beyond disgusting. I think we can all agree to that.

(FWIW, I've largely stayed away from this topic online, but this site is cool because I get to talk to international folk that all already have the commonality/unity of being motorcyclists, so I figured I'd test the waters here)
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne G Oldman View Post
After the slaughter at Sandy Hook school, America's firearms debate intensifies - Americas - World - The Independent

I haven't posted this article to start a huge slanging match, just to promote a respectful debate.

A polite request to the Mods.

Please don't delete this thread, just deal with any individual posts that are disrespectful or break forum rules.

Thank You.
Wynne , I agree it is time for a change here in the states. I live in Arizona and am not a gun owner, I have never felt the need to have one. I have many friends that have multiple guns and have conceal carry permits and carry their guns always. I ask them why they feel the need to carry and most of the time their response is "because I can ". I had a friend killed last year over a non-contact traffic issue. The guy that felt offended followed my buddy to a shop where stopped, in a very upscale part of town, words were exchanged and my buddy was shot dead by an attorney. Tom had no weapon of any kind. Most gun people in this country will never give up their guns without a fight. I would like to see this stop, just not sure how to go about it
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:24 PM   #5
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Tragic events like this always spark (or re-spark) this debate over gun control.

The proponents will always claim it is needed to prevent things like this from happening again.

Opponents will always claim that it (gun control) will infringe on our constitutional rights. ( The Second amendment of the US Constitution reads: A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.)

It's more complex than that. It's been made much more complex than that by intense lobbying on both sides and our politicians (bless 'em all) pandering to the money.

Combine that with:

- Non-uniform gun laws from state to state.
- perceived un-even reporting of these kinds of events by the commercial media (some will argue all media)
- populist concerns that we will lose our guarantee against a despotic government ( read your constitution, that's not in the second amendment).
- Government embarrassment over their current policies ('oh, if we only had funding for this program, it would never have happened')
- Gun ownership is considered a right but there are no specific responsibilities attached to it. Any attempt to do so is viewed as an infringement on that right.
- When this country was founded Military and non-military firearms were pretty much the same. Time and technology have made them different.

I listened to Wayne LaPierre's(NRA) press conference. I do not think he did himself or the NRA any favors nor did he offer anything meaningful. He is basically signaling that the NRA stands to oppose any firearm restrictions what-so-ever. But who knows . .as their adds used to say, "I (we) are the NRA", though I have always had my doubts about what individual members think.

So, you're still looking for me to come down on one side or the other on the issue? Let me say this: This is a big and complex issue with many facets. It remains that it appears to be happening with increasing frequency in this country. It remains on our leadership to figure out what needs to be done and implement it. Is there anything simple that will make these things stop? No. Is there any one thing we can do that will make it stop? No. Will adding armed guards to every school or banning violent video games stop this from happening? No. Will increased government funding for mental health programs stop this from happening? No. There are a lot of things to deal with, who has the will to do it?

Well, I may not be the moderator . . but I'm moderate.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:35 PM   #6
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Well, I may not be the moderator . . but I'm moderate.
Well put. I think most sane-minded people are, deep down. You see the unyielding pros and cons from the extremists on both sides of anything, but the answer is usually somewhere in the middle. A lot of times ideology and results are not the same thing, so it's necessary to moderate to do things correctly. The passionate shouting gets the most attention, but the guys in the middle going "meh, you got this, but you also got this" are the ones I side with almost all the time in the end.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:39 PM   #7
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I've just been reading some of the comments at the bottom of the article. There's some funny stuff there, and some intelligent comments but also some bigoted anti-Americanism, from those who don't know any better. On behalf of my country, I apologise for this, I hadn't read the comments before I posted the article. We all know that there's good and bad in all walks of life, don't we? Fortunately, there are far more good people in all societies, than bad.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:48 PM   #8
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If all of us motorcyclists had our own country together, where everyone had a bike, we'd be the most envied place on earth.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:56 PM   #9
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If all of us motorcyclists had our own country together, where everyone had a bike, we'd be the most envied place on earth.
And Id have a 240b mounted on the front of my bike and a 9mm on my hip.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:08 PM   #10
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... and my buddy was shot dead by an attorney. Tom had no weapon of any kind...
I would hope that the justice system did it's job, and that this attorney who murdered your buddy is now rotting in prison for a long time, for his crime.

As for the current debate regarding the perceived need for new gun control laws, it is very apparent that the advocates for stricter laws are unwilling to acknowledge that so many of the laws currently on the books are not being enforced. For example, if a convicted felon is denied purchase of a firearm through the National Instant Background Check system, he has in fact broken Federal law by virtue of merely attempting to purchase a firearm... yet these felons are not prosecuted under the existing law.

While lawmakers can create and pass all the new laws they want, until the decision is made to enforce those laws (and existing laws) nothing will change. A new so-called Assault Weapons Ban would amount to nothing more than a "feel good" law which will temporarily appease the left wing gun control lobby, until the next madman steals firearms and commits mass murder. One cannot legislate morality and sanity. The guy who has been convicted of 7 DWI offenses, and has lost his D/L, can and will get behind the wheel drunk and kill some family on their way home... all the laws in the world won't change that, until those laws are seriously enforced. Putting that guy with 7 DWI convictions in prison for a good long time, will save lives.

We as a society are too soft on crime. The piece of sh!t who shot Gabby Giffords, and killed the others in Phoenix copped a plea deal for life in prison... 100 years ago when swift justice was the law of the land, he would have gotten what he truly deserves... publicly hanged inside of a week of committing his heinous crime.

Tougher laws, or more laws?... How about getting tough regarding the laws we already have?
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