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Slow Speed Performance

13K views 56 replies 14 participants last post by  Soul Searcher 
#1 · (Edited)
If you own a Motorcycle. Did you take the Time to Learn all about the Performance of it. I think you forgot the Slow Speed Performance. The CBR250R can out perform my CMX250C on Top End.

But can your CBR250R or any other motorcycle you own, Compete with my Rebel, in this Test.

The Test and Conditions, can be found in a video I posted to youtube. Take a Look and see.

Link : https://youtu.be/8hXzz1ozXp0

I also tested my wife' 2000 Rebel. With a little extra speed on the top end.

Link: https://youtu.be/7vtwgrMlQzo
 
#6 ·
Slow Speed Performance.



Your Post is Much Appreciated. You are a Participant. You are willing to Learn.

How Long did you hold the Throttle Open. I would guess, less than 5 Seconds.

Stick around. Class is in Session.
 
#5 ·
Return of the Living Dead.

Greetings to All Members, Old and New and to our Visiting Guest.


Soul Searcher has returned, to this Great CBR250R Forum.


For those that Don't recognize the Name. Due to Medical Conditions, beyond my control. I've been Absent from this Forum for some time. If you want to know more, click on the Link below for more information.

Link :
http://www.cbr250.net/forum/off-topic-discussion/9432-training-ghost-riders-sky.html

A phrase that my Mother's Father taught me. Their are Things You Know and Things that You Think You Know. Don't Every get the Two Confused.

A phrase from the last Renaissance Man : Robert Heinlien ; TANSTAAFL (Their Aren’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch).

Soul Searcher's phrase, from the WWW : Real World or Theoretical.
 
#7 ·
Soul Searcher has returned, to this Great CBR250R Forum.
Welcome back.

I've been on and off this forum since I sold the 250, still come here from time to time. I'm over at the 600rr forum now, but still like to have a chat / input here too. Have met a nice bunch of people.
 
#9 ·
Greeting Juzman,


Glad to hear from you. I guess I'll have to visit the 600rr Forum. Is your username the same over there?
 
#16 ·
#10 ·
I have to ask, what's the purpose or intent behind starting this sort of thread on this website? Given that the primary focus of this site is the CBR250R, I'm pretty sure few here would have much interest in the ability of a Honda Rebel to do a roll on from 15 MPH in 5th gear.

At the end of the day, to make this sort of comparison between the CMX250C, and the CBR250R (or any other small sport bike) makes about as much sense as attempting to compare the characteristics of a 1000cc cruiser to a CBR1000RR.

One comment on the first video in the opening post... attempting those 15 to 55 MPH roll ons on a busy divided highway where traffic is moving at or above the posted speed limit is dangerous to say the least. Taking that sort of risk to prove a pointless point makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
 
#11 ·
I have to ask, what's the purpose or intent behind starting this sort of thread on this website? Given that the primary focus of this site is the CBR250R, I'm pretty sure few here would have much interest in the ability of a Honda Rebel to do a roll on from 15 MPH in 5th gear.
Just 'idle chit-chat' as far as I can see. We all spout a bit of nonsense after a beer or two or when we've got time on our hands. That's what makes us human with personalities as opposed to faceless clones who just happen to have time on CBR250Rs in common. I'm all for a bit of inoffensive trash talk every now and then.

It's a shame I don't still have my old VTZ250, I reckon that would give the Rebel a hard time in the 15-55 test (on a very quiet road of course). Maybe I'll link this to my old friends on the VTR250 forum!
 
#12 ·
an excellent method for demonstrating what
not to do, with your cbr250r,, unless of course
you are a novice motorcyclist and dont have
basic understandings as to drivetrain loading,
skillful use of revs to gears, and so on..

for novices here, do not attempt this overloading
exercise, until you have mastered designed
gear to revs use to basic skills levels..

this is like practicing kicking your horse
before learning to make it your friend..
once its your friend, you wont need
advice on kicking it...
 
#13 ·
Slow Speed Performance.

MotoMike said:
I have to ask, what's the purpose or intent behind starting this sort of thread on this website? Given that the primary focus of this site is the CBR250R, I'm pretty sure few here would have much interest in the ability of a Honda Rebel to do a roll on from 15 MPH in 5th gear.

This Thread is about the CBR250R. The Basic Engine Operation, Fuel and Engine Management, How the ECM/ECU controls the various Outputs.

MotoMike said:
At the end of the day, to make this sort of comparison between the CMX250C, and the CBR250R (or any other small sport bike) makes about as much sense as attempting to compare the characteristics of a 1000cc cruiser to a CBR1000RR.

The Early Days. 2 and 4 Stroke Engines with Slide Type Carburetor. Can Cause Detonation 100% of the Time. Was REPLACED with the C/V Carburetor. REDUCED Detonation, up to 99%. REPLACED with EFI. Can Cause Detonation 100% of the Time.



MOTORMIKE said:
One comment on the first video in the opening post... attempting those 15 to 55 MPH roll ons on a busy divided highway where traffic is moving at or above the posted speed limit is dangerous to say the least. Taking that sort of risk to prove a pointless point makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.


What you may have not seen. There is a 4 ft Bike Lane to my Right. When I was videoing. At least half or more of the Time, I was looking in the Right Mirror. If a vehicle was within 500 ft behind me and Gaining. If he didn’t change to the Inside Lane. I engaged the right turn signal and Moved into the Bike Lane. What you didn’t see, was the 37 Times, I moved into the Bike Lane.

Their is 13,765 Threads on the Forum. If you read 2 Threads ever hour. That would equal 6,882.5 hours or 3 years, 4 months approximately. All of the INFORMATION would be Theoretical, NOT Real World. Keith on the other hand, Learned Real World, First Hand Knowledge, about Detonation, Loading, Unloading and Overloading the Engine, Operating the ECM/ECU OUTSIDE of its Normal Programing. In less than a MINUTE. All from the posted video. The VIDEO is a TRAINING AID.
 
#14 ·
*The VIDEO is a TRAINING AID.* Rofl.

I have had a full U.K licence. Also with a advanced police driving exam for 13 years. At no time was i taught what you are doing in the video. Infact I was trained/told NEVER to do that.

Grabs popcorn, Smells a troll.
 
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#17 · (Edited)
Slow Speed Performance.



Greetings midgeinc,

I see from your Profile, that you are a Teacher. From my experience with Teachers and Instructors. They have a Lesson Plan to Follow. So, do you know what my Lesson Plan is?

I see that you didn't research me, as was posted, earlier in this Thread. But, I did research you.

I read the Threads that you Started. Looking to see, how many Threads, where you contributed your Knowledge about the CBR250R to this Forum.

From all of your Formal Training. Their must have been some missing Information, about JUDGING people that you have never meet. If we were face to face and you CALLED me a Troll. If would of have been a No Harm, No Foul. But in the USA, that is Personal Slander. It's in Print. That could lead to a Lawsuit for Personal Slander of a Person. But I'm not that Kind of Person. To me, it's still No Harm, No Foul.

If you had read my Thread. Basic Gearing, it not as Simple as You Think. Link :

http://www.cbr250.net/forum/other-honda-motorcycles/6680-basic-gearing-its-not-simple-you-think.html

You reply would of been very Different.
 
#15 ·
I'm not sure about the OP's video being a training aid but sometimes it's just nice to play a bit and feel smug about your bike doing what it does best.

In this case he's made it quite clear that Honda Rebels are truly the best at going veeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyy sssssssssllllllllllllllllooooowwwwwwwwwwww.:wink2:
 
#20 ·
Soul Searcher has been a member of this forum for years and is not a troll. He started a thread on a topic he thinks is interesting and perhaps generate discussion. If a member does not agree with the subject matter then common sense dictates non-participation. There is no need to criticize the OP or call into question his grammar. Let's not resort to juvenile behaviour re: I have more likes than you. Seriously?

Since the OP offered an explanation about his absence from the forum, let me enlighten some of you. Soul Searcher has been battling a life threatening illness for some time. For the love GROW UP!!
 
#22 ·
Absolutely agree TheoR, we all march to different drummers. Some more artistically than others. Lol

True, this is a public forum where some find bravado in bullying. However I will say something when personal opinion crosses the line into mean spiritedness.
 
#24 ·
Slow Speed Performance.

This is a Public Forum. But it has to Confirm and Obey Certain Laws.

When we agreed to become a Member of this Forum. We All agreed to Certain Terms, Conditions, Rule and Regulations. If you need a Refresher.

Thanks to MotorMike, he Posted a Sticky on the Home Page, a Summary of the Rules. From this Summary, a short Quote.

Posts containing unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, or indecent information of any kind will be deleted.
What's been Done, can't be Undone. All we can do is Move Forward From Here. That's in the Past, Let's Move into the Present, and look Toward to the Future.

In my working career. A lot of customers, paid the companies that employed me, a lot of money, to correct the Complaints, that their Vehicle were experiencing. So what I doing now is Paying it Forward. In my dealing with the Public. I have put them in one of two categories. They are Listeners and their are Talkers. I classified myself as a Listener. You can Acquire more Knowledge, by Listen, instead of Talking. The Key is to ask the Right Questions.

A glimpse into the Lesson Plan.Time for a little History. Who says a Thread has to be Dry and Dull. Not me,

I spent 50 years wrenching. Medical retirement in 2005. During my 50 year career, I never heard the Term, "Lugging the Engine". The only reference to the word Lug, referred to the Lug Nuts or Lug Bolts, that secured a wheel assembly to a 4 or more tired vehicle, What I did hear from the vehicle owners was, my engine is pinging, or my engine is making a noise, that sounds like, marbles in a tin can. This, to me was Detonation.

When I became WWW (World Wide Web), internet proficient, in 2009. I was introduced, to the Term, "Lugging the Engine". From many web sites. From the information, that was posted, the description, described Detonation.

When you look up the meaning of Lug or Lugging. The word is used as a Slang Word, that is used to mean something else. Such as, I had to lug my suitcase thru the airport. I lugged the kids with me, while I was grocery shopping and had to lug all of those bags into the house.

Searched, to see if the Origin of the word Lug, Lugging could be found. No defined Origin. But is listed in many parts of the World.

Searched, for the Origin of the phrase, "Lugging the Engine". Nothing definite on the Results. Hey World, Who Started this Phrase?

It's been discussed on this Forum. I posted in the Thread, and ask a Question. The Response, I let you determine the out come. Located at the following Link.

http://www.cbr250.net/forum/cbr250-performance/4642-what-does-lugging-engine-do.html

I'm sure you heard the following. A picture is worth a thousands Words.

During the Power Stroke, of the normally aspirated internal combustion engine in the CBR250R. Their are 4 different condition, that can occur in the cylinder. As listed below.







Is any one of the Conditions, named LUGGING?

End Sneak Peak of the Lesson Plan.
 
#25 ·
'lugging' is present participle of verb 'lug'
'1. to carry [something heavy] with great effort' [collins dict.]

transitive form [interestingly];
'2. to introduce [an irrelevant topic] into
a conversation or topic.'

meaning at least in australian use with reference to engines;
forcing the engine to push its load [mass of motorcycle and rider
including against gravity, ie, uphill etc] at low rpm, thus torque,
in a high gear ratio [such as top] and at full throttle..

think of riding a geared pushbike up a steep hill in top gear..
or carrying your own body weight, up a hill..
in these analogies the power to weight ratio would change
and the amount of available torque [power] from your legs,
if you changed down from top to first on the pushy
and or if you carried that weight downhill instead of uphill..

lugging your engine means in particular forcing it and its bearings
and lubrication system to overload relative to designed use..
you might say, attempt to tow a truck with your motorcycle,
which would be easier downslope and in first gear
than on the level or upslope in top gear..

while detonation and loadings on bearing [reduced oil flow]
may,, be possible factors in lugging your engine,,
the point [imo] is as to the opposite of skillful riding
and care of your motorcycle..

engines can rev themselves silly, in neutral..
once under load in actual road conditions
they need different gears to function..

if the load was not, a factor, honda and so on
would not waste effort designing in low weight..
or create multi ratio gear boxes..
or design engines to perform well and last
within certain torque/hp - rpm ranges..

if he intent as seems the case here
has been to stimulate responses
then it has worked,, but in doing so
has planted a negative seed in the minds
of potential novice rider members here [imo]..

thus my response as another senior member
with wide riding experience, to this advice
which is [imo] teaching engine abuse..
[no offense]
 
#27 ·
Slow Speed Performance.

Soul Searcher said:
But can your CBR250R or any other motorcycle you own, Compete with my Rebel, in this Test.
I believe this is a Question. I never ask anyone to perform the Test.

You, the Owner and Operator, (RIC) Rider or Racer In Charge, depending on whether you Feel the Need for Speed.

The Decision to Participate is Strictly Your Choice. Right or Wrong, You, Not Me, Made the Choice.

Elegant post shisoshin. A little Help from you. Maybe you can supply me with the Title and Author of a book. For an Internal Combustion Engine. That is recognized by the Manufactures, that sells and train their Dealership Technician. In the Troubleshooting and Repair of their Vehicles.

I've attended many schools over my working career. Both domestic and imports. In the hundred of hours, of classroom training. None of the Instructors, from America, Germany, Italy or Japan, has ever mention the word Lugging. Your Help, would be Greatly Appreciated.

Apples to Oranges. You, a human engine on a bicycle, against an Internal Combustion Engine, powering a CBR250R and Rider.

Apples to Apples, or Oranges to Oranges. A CB250R against a CBR600RR. At a 1/4 mile Drag strip. In a Competition Race, to see which motorcycle has the Lowest E.T.
 
#29 ·
well as the question is directed to me personally,
i have made no claim whatsoever of any technical
use of the term 'lug' or 'lugging'..

this term is, and has been in use in various contexts
including in reference to lugging an engine..
its the - idea - not just any particular word..

in using analogy such as say, pruning fruit trees,
someone might use pruning an orange tree
to make a point on pruning an apple tree..

incidentally, my adult sons [both motorcyclists]
just turned, so i asked them independently what they
would thing someone meant by 'lugging your engine'
and they both said 'too low revs for gear, my taciturn
eldest son leaving it at that, my youngest son continuing
in a discourse on the subject..

so in australia at least these motorcyclists from 25 to 67
know what 'lugging an engine is', without need for
any context for that simple question..

novices still here should consider developing
all riding skills according to designed use..
one of which would be the habit of being in
the best gear and most effective rev range
for whatever situation you are in
at any time..
 
#31 ·
Slow Speed Performance.

novices still here should consider developing
all riding skills according to designed use..
one of which would be the habit of being in
the best gear and most effective rev range
for whatever situation you are in
at any time..
I agree with you 100%.

When I hear the Term, lugging the engine. I'm reminded of the person in the airport, lugging the suitcase. Also, a person who has removed the engine from their CBR250R.It's sitting on the jack on the floor. The person lugs the engine from the jack to a workbench.

I had one of those Senior moments. I have a Honda Factory Service Manual for the CBR250R. When I was attending a training school. Everyone in the class, had a copy of the Factory Service Manual. The information that was discussed, in the class, was directly from the Factory Service Manual.

I have looked thru my Honda Factory Service Manual for the CBR250R many times. I couldn't find it, or I overlooked it. So, I'm asking for some Help, from the Forum Members, that have a Honda Factory Service Manual for the CBR250R. If in your spare time and are willing to help. It would be Most Appreciated.

The information that I post about a subject. I try to be as correct as I can and have a reference, where the information can be found.
 
#34 ·
To the topic of this thread title Slow Speed Performance, the CBR250R is very capable of being operating at slow speeds... one only needs to have the transmission in the proper gear relative to the road speed. I can ride my CBR all day long at 15 MPH without issue in 2nd gear. And since the bike is equipped with a 6 speed gear box, it doesn't need to be capable of doing a roll on in top gear from 15 MPH.

Case closed.
 
#37 · (Edited)
What's your point boshuda?

None of us can critically stand up to an English major on our grammar. Let's not needlessly stir the pot. If you can not contribute to the subject matter then opt out.

If certain members continue to behave in a ridiculous manner then we will close this thread and you folks can continue to carry on in your immature behaviour. Really people, we should not have to do this because you can't find something better to do than pick apart another members grammar! :(
 
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#39 · (Edited)
I have my second degree in English. But i still make mistakes all the time :). No one if perfect. I think it may be more of a problem for non native speakers to understand. We all know google translate sucks. - Close the thread - As per all my motorcycle's users manuals. Regardeless, of break in period. Never "Lugg" the engine. Or "labour" the engine unnecessarily.

I mean come on. I know the words "common sence" Don't exist in Thai language. But they do in English. What real world application can screwing around in fifth really have? Bearing in mind it is not even the bike of the forum topic. You have far more control in second or third. When i was learning. My insructor on the intercom used to always say. This is a second gear corner. As you have the engine breaking & power if needed.

Mike. If you wan't to ban me. I understand. But this thread detracts from the forum. All in all. Very circuitous.

*Edit* Atleast the topics has had over 1000 views. Keeping the forum alive hehe. Soulsearcher I've no problem's with you bro. Next time i am out state side FL. Lived in Tallahassee for eight years.I'll buy you a few beers bud. :)
 
#38 ·
spelling, grammar and capitalisation dont bother me much,
whilever the ideas, within the verbiage, have validity or interest..

still, making claims of teaching others, could, depending on
what is being 'taught' to whom and how its presented,
seem to some to be somewhat presumptuous...

bear in mind tho folks, this forum has global membership
thus many will be esl people, and for some today
grammar etc is just not that important..
 
#41 ·
Agree, no ones being banned. The thread will remain open as long as mutual respect is given. We have people from different back grounds on this forum. ESL is just one example.

I agree the topic of this thread is "different". Personally I would never purposely lug an engine and see no point to it. But, the OP is wishing to discuss this procedure with others. Peacefully leave him to it. :)
 
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#45 ·
I agree the topic of this thread is "different". Personally I would never purposely lug an engine and see no point to it. But, the OP is wishing to discuss this procedure with others. Peacefully leave him to it. :)
I don't see that the OP is advocating 'lugging' a motor, simply investigating the usable rev range of different motors. If a motor will pull cleanly from say 2000rpm then it is not being lugged.

Our CBRs are peaky little blighters as four strokes go - too lumpy to be any use below 4000rpm in high gears and by 8000 the power is noticably fading.
Highest usable revs divided by lowest usable revs = 2

My old VTZ would pull cleanly from 2500 to 12000 giving a figure of nearly 5 in the above calculation.

That measure of flexibility will be most important to folks who spend a lot of time riding in heavy traffic where frequent gear changes are going to become more of a chore.
 
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