engine turns, has spark but does not strart - Page 3 - Honda CBR250R Forum : Honda CBR 250 Forums
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post #21 of 59 Old 10-08-2013, 11:56 PM
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Exclamation When is a Battery at Full Charge?????

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Originally Posted by MotoMike View Post
I'm not understanding how a bike with a fully charged (and load tested) battery won't start using the starter motor, but will fire up by bump starting.
Some Information on this Subject.

A fully charged, Flooded Lead Acid Battery, is considered fully charged at 12.6 VDC.

An fully charged, AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) Lead Acid Battery, is considered fully charged at 12.6 to 12.9 VDC, depending on the manufacture.

When starting the engine. The battery voltage is at, lets say 12.6 VDC. After the starter starts to rotate the engine. The battery voltage will drop to between 11 and 12 VDC. This is a normal voltage drop, considering the high amperage draw of the starter.

For the Ignition Coil to operate properly. The Battery Voltage at the Ignition Coil has to be 10.6 VDC or Higher.

If the Battery is Weak, below full charge status. The starter will still rotate the engine, to what the operator thinks is a fully charged battery. But the battery voltage at the Ignition Coil is below 10.6 VDC.

The engine doesn't start. So the operator, tries starting the engine again, so forth & so on.

So the operator tries a Push Start. The Push Start is a success, so the cbr and the rider is off on another Adventure.

So What is the Difference ?

The Difference is the Voltage at the Ignition Coil.

Even thou the battery was Weak. By Push Starting the cbr, instead of using the starter, the battery voltage didn't drop below 10.6 VDC, at the Ignition Coil.

Maybe it's Time to Think about getting a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) ?????
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post #22 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Searcher View Post
Some Information on this Subject.

A fully charged, Flooded Lead Acid Battery, is considered fully charged at 12.6 VDC.

An fully charged, AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) Lead Acid Battery, is considered fully charged at 12.6 to 12.9 VDC, depending on the manufacture.

When starting the engine. The battery voltage is at, lets say 12.6 VDC. After the starter starts to rotate the engine. The battery voltage will drop to between 11 and 12 VDC. This is a normal voltage drop, considering the high amperage draw of the starter.

For the Ignition Coil to operate properly. The Battery Voltage at the Ignition Coil has to be 10.6 VDC or Higher.

If the Battery is Weak, below full charge status. The starter will still rotate the engine, to what the operator thinks is a fully charged battery. But the battery voltage at the Ignition Coil is below 10.6 VDC.

The engine doesn't start. So the operator, tries starting the engine again, so forth & so on.

So the operator tries a Push Start. The Push Start is a success, so the cbr and the rider is off on another Adventure.

So What is the Difference ?

The Difference is the Voltage at the Ignition Coil.

Even thou the battery was Weak. By Push Starting the cbr, instead of using the starter, the battery voltage didn't drop below 10.6 VDC, at the Ignition Coil.

Maybe it's Time to Think about getting a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) ?????
.
Yes, I understand all that, but we weren't talking about a weak or partially charged battery, but rather a battery that is claimed to be fully charged and yet unable to start the bike via the starter motor. To me, this failure to start on a supposedly fully charged battery would indicate some other issue with the bike.

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post #23 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 12:46 AM
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Question State of Charge.

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Originally Posted by MotoMike View Post
Yes, I understand all that, but we weren't talking about a weak or partially charged battery, but rather a battery that is claimed to be fully charged and yet unable to start the bike via the starter motor. To me, this failure to start on a supposedly fully charged battery would indicate some other issue with the bike.
From Giko's video's. From the sound of the engine, as Giko is trying to start it. To me, the battery is weak. In the first video. The engine would start a few times, but would not achieve an idle condition. What is keeping the engine from achieving an idle. Loss of minimum voltage to the ignition coil.

In the second video. Engine would not even try to start. I could hear the engine slow down as Giko was trying to start it. From a Battery that was getting weaker.

This is supposed to be a fully charged Battery. Check, Charged and Load Tested by a Honda Dealership. I Think I would get a Second Opinion of the state of Charge in the Battery.
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Last edited by Soul Searcher; 10-09-2013 at 01:42 AM.
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post #24 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 06:35 AM
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You could try using jump leads off a car. If it starts OK, your battery is toast.



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post #25 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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Before I did the video I did try to start the bike few times...so this may explain why the 2nd try was a little week...
Just to prove if my charger was working fine, ran the battery until it discharged. I am sure of that because the front display dimmed out as I was holding the start button. I had the battery connected to the charger for 6 hours and now it fully cranks the engine.

Remember that I am getting a good spark and I even tried using the quick start fluid, which we know works. Because the engine is rotating well, I don't believe the battery is the issue. Anyways I did as Wynne suggested just so you all can see.
Here is the video of the bike connected to my truck:

CBR250R 2 - YouTube

It does sound better but still it did not start.
More info: I tried quick start fluid as well with the battery connected to the truck, no start

@shisoshin - I did as suggested and no luck

Last edited by Giko; 10-09-2013 at 11:03 AM. Reason: more info
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post #26 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 10:37 AM
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@ Giko,

Do you have a Multi-Meter ?

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2001 Red Kawasaki ZR-7s 18,000 Miles

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post #27 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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yes. I use a fluke everyday at work. What should I check?
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post #28 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 11:38 AM
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@ Giko,

Being this is a computer controlled engine. The ground circuit is most critical. .2 volts can cause havoc with normal operations.

We start by checking the ground circuit. Meter on the 2VDC scale. Positive lead on one of the ground wire terminals at the voltage regulator. Negative lead to battery negative terminal.

Try to start the engine and see what is indicated on the meter.

What Model of Fluke do you use? I've used a Fluke 87 since mid 80's.

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post #29 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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@Soul Searcher
I'm sorry for the delay. I just came back from work and did the test.
I used a Fluke115 and I set it to MIN/MAX setting. Wires as you requested.
Min - 0.000V
Avg - 0.032V
Max - 0.345V
So for the split second there is a voltage drop of 0.3V, but on average it's only 0.032V. This voltages are while cranking the engine.
Is this what you were looking for?
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post #30 of 59 Old 10-09-2013, 08:37 PM
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@ Giko,

I was hoping for a cleaner ground. But I have a quick cure for that.

We are going to bypass the frame ground, and go the direct route.

Using 14 ga wire. From the ground bolt on the voltage regulator to battery negative terminal. Use ring terminals on each end of the wire.

Remove the bolt at the voltage regulator that contains the ground wires. Add one end of the external ground wire to the bolt and reinstall.

Attach the other end of the external ground wire to battery negative cable retaining screw.

Try and see if the engine will start.

If your Waiting on me, You're Late.

1999 Black Honda VQR234se 43,000+ Miles
2001 Red Kawasaki ZR-7s 18,000 Miles

A Service Manual Each, + CBR250R.

Last edited by Soul Searcher; 10-09-2013 at 08:39 PM. Reason: text
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