If you don't think countersteering is real... - Page 2 - Honda CBR250R Forum : Honda CBR 250 Forums
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post #11 of 14 Old 06-01-2015, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mage^ View Post
Works for our bike, but somehow I get a different feeling when riding other bikes, in my experience the Z800 and Duke 690

I feel that countersteering does help initiate the turn in, but just as it's leaning over, I realise that the handlebars start fighting back, and instead of the wheel pointing in the opposite direction of the turn, it points toward the turn

Why's it different? Is it the rake and trail? Springs?
You are correct. Counter-steering only initiates the turn but as the bike starts to lean into the turn the front wheel automatically shifts toward the turn. The front wheel knows what to do so don't fight it. Interesting that you noticed it - most people don't.

When you are turning you can alter the radius of the turn by counter-steering. For example, if you are leaning into a left turn and you want to tighten the turn, counter-steer by pushing the left bar away. If you want to straighten up then counter-steer by pushing the right bar away. Very little force is needed if you counter-steer correctly. With practice it is automatic. For further info watch the video "Twist of the Wrist."
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post #12 of 14 Old 06-01-2015, 06:42 PM
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Countersteering to steepen the lean is a standard practice for dealing with unexpected decreasing radius turns.
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post #13 of 14 Old 06-01-2015, 08:13 PM
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some riders think - ie, assume - something called 'counter-steering'
doesnt exist, because their riding experience hasnt included specific
use of the term or the idea of it,, because they have learned to turn
at speed without consciously pushing on their inside bar..

there are many, coordinated movements we make in what seem simple
actions and movements around our center of gravity, walking down steps,
walking around corners, etc, which our brains learn to do by just doing them..
trial and error.. before an infant actually walks, there is a long sequence of
learning based on pre-positioning, from rolling over to crawling to sitting
to standing to toddling a few steps etc, all of which send multiple sense data
back to brain from sensors in every joint and connective tissues/muscles
controlling joints, which brain selects for maintenance of balance etc
whatever the impulse or wish of the baby/infant and on thru childhood..

if someone has learned to ride a motorcycle in progression from bushbikes
[etc] to motorcycles in self learning, movements away from straight
and into turning will have already been well established in brain,
including momentary set up movements to begin a turn..

this will be learned right from the start by brain in simply keeping
a small pushy or even a childs scooter upright and going straight..
brain has a truely amazing ability to take in sensory data from body
and create balanced movements therefrom..

what may be described using laws of motion and other dynamics
is learned by brain without knowledge of physics and so on..

that was me, starting on the tank of fathers motorcycle as a lad,
then pushies, etc, onto a scoot then motorcycles [8 til now]
father gone by 16, no other relos/friends to coach me etc..

so i'd been riding for many years before hearing about 'countersteering'..
ok, being inquisitive by nature and it being about riding motorcycles,
i checked it out online etc, then my own testing and consideration
when riding..

those who have already learned to ride without deliberately 'counter-steering'
will be able to ride around corners and curves at speed, their brains
having developed body movements which cause set up for leaning..

ive helped friends learn to ride motorcycles without the term 'counter-steer'
or the idea of it.. by helping make cornering smoother and more effective
thru such as, turning head to look thru/around the curve, starting to flex
inside elbow [this cascading slight movements thru shoulder into spine etc]
and related small shifts of main joints [hip, knee, ankle] to 'go with the flow'
of cornering, there is a slight added pressure to the side head turns
and elbow etc joints flex, ie the inside bar..

anyone who started riding pushbikes as a child will have experienced
steering effects at low speed, turning bars/wheel into a corner..
then when riding beyond slowly, their first attempt will provide brain
with direct input that turning bars one way at speed causes momentum
and inertia forward, to keep going forward, as wheel turns, thus
sending them forward off the bike..

ie, turning bars into the turn at speed results in tipping over
in the direction travelled straight, or opposite to that turn..

this is the initial effect of 'counter-steering', slight movement of wheel
right causes reactionary movement of mass to left..
this in a single track vehicle starts the lean
in the 'wrong' direction [for a low speed turn]
which is the right direction for a motorcycle at speed..

having begun leaning into the curve, front wheel [thus bars]
continue tracking around the line of that lean [on hard surfaces]..

this momentary beginning of the lean takes about 1/10 second [hurt report]
and can also be initiated by body shifting thus torque applied to moving
mass and other influences in a sequence with many factors..

a tenth of a second is next to nothing in terms of conscious movement
so would become subsumed withing everything else happening
within the motorcycle/rider movement, and in her mind..

this is a reality known to pushbike racers [who lean at speed]
and fairly well described in physics of momentum etc today
link below to a kiki article, which is inclusive and might
answer questions for those seeking same..


Last edited by shisoshin; 06-01-2015 at 08:20 PM. Reason: changed wrong link
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post #14 of 14 Old 06-03-2015, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post
"use only the rear brake the front is dangerous..."
My dad told me that one summer when I flew home I went out for a ride with him on his other bike. I had to have him clarify that he was only talking about going through the mud in our driveway. When he first said it I looked at him like he was a few cards short of a full deck.
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