[kutter]

I'm a big proponent of ABS but I'm not a fan of Hondas combined system. There are times (u-turns for example) where you may need to leverage the rear brake and don't want the front brake applied.


TowJam

I worried too about the times you don't want to chance front braking but with ABS I tend to believe that fear is unwarranted. The reason you don't want front brake in those situations is because when it locks up you go down. With ABS it won't lock up.
It could still wash out in loose stuff though so I wouldn't recommend a braking turn in loose stuff.

 

[Brian]

I have never used abs except in my car. I believe it activated before skidding would occur.
On motorcycles good braking habits are very important. Using both brakes is a habit to build, because if you try to do the Freddie Spencer front brake only you will lose in an emergency stop situation.
You need to practice panic stops, shortest stop possible from different speeds and even practice braking in corners or turns in an empty parking lot. What ever habits you train and learn is how you will react in a panic situation. you can not drive around looking at the scenery for 10,000 miles and figure you will react in your favor when something goes wrong on the road. So do concious training. Try the brakes seperately, then use them together. Then us them hard together. then build the habit of using them together all the time.
The same with countersteering. Train your brain and muscles to work to gether counciously. when you turn left think 'left turn' as you push the left handle bar. same for right turns. make your brain and muscles get involved together with the simple tasks, so it becomes the reaction you want. Instint may not be enough.
Some years ago a bike mag had an article that new riders were actually steerig into the problem in panic situations, because you dont have time to think about countersteering, you have to react. The riders for example would 'turn' right to avoid the problem to the left, and actually initiate a left swerve.
So for the cabs, it may be more iportant to usse both brake becaus I a not sure if you get full front power using the front brake lever alone. It looks like the rear brake adds some braking power to the front, but also not enought to be used alone. I dont know that abs save lives more than good practice, it may. But dont let it become a crutch.
I have riden alot in the rain, and you would be surprised at the amount of available traction, you have to try it. and like all practice, start easy and work gradually. I went down on black ice, because untill that day I had no idea what black ice was. I was leaning,and braking for miles. But I kept getting very wide out of the corners, I thought I was doing something wrong, tried adjusting my lines and finally went down.
So even though there was still surprising amount of traction for me, ice is a no go. I plan on riding the 250 sanely, and do not feel the need for abs. If I was buying a 1000 or 600, I would definately want alll the goodies.

 

[JERSEY CBR]

i got the red abs version coming,cant wait.

 

[topherguns]

Last summer I drove around on a 50cc scooter. I had my front tire lock up and skid a little at a gravel covered intersection. It was a little scary. Something like that should not happen with abs. But then again, proper breaking technique will also solve this.

 

[kutter]

i got the red abs version coming,cant wait.

You & me both! I'm a good rider. I never had a bike w/ABS, and I have had a bunch of them. I know how to brake. I have went down before braking in a panic stop. I definitely don't like to go down. I generally heal; but my bike!!! You can ride safely all the time & do your best to be attentive. If you ride a lot there will come a time and many of them if you ride a lot & often, when unexpected stuff happens. I want all my skill combined with my best reaction time with every advantage I have available. I'll have good tires inflated right, ride only in the rain if I get caught in it, and in Pittsburgh if you ride to work you will get to ride in the rain if you want to go home. ABS is a great help on wet roads.

 

[Xplorguy]

Another advantage to having abs on your bike, and I almost hesitate to mention this, is you can definitely ride faster in the twisties....by that I mean you can approach a curve faster than you would without abs and shave speed without so much concern for locking up the wheels, initiating the actual curve at an appropriate speed and accelerating out.....it doesn't take an emergency to get positive results from an abs equipped bike........

 

[103]

I'm on the fence about it. The money could be better spent just on upgrading the tires to stickier sport rubber. I realize all the stats and all that that says ABS saves you in a panic.

Motorcycles got by w/o ABS for decades, and racers still don't use it. So that kind of throws the challenge out to me to get better and work on my skills/reflexes.

Maybe because it is banned like in F1, i dont know, but i remember F! gained over 2 sec. per lap with abs.

So you are actually telling us, that you can adjust the brake up to 16 times per second, and even in panic

 

[Brian]

Another advantage to having abs on your bike, and I almost hesitate to mention this, is you can definitely ride faster in the twisties....by that I mean you can approach a curve faster than you would without abs and shave speed without so much concern for locking up the wheels, initiating the actual curve at an appropriate speed and accelerating out.....it doesn't take an emergency to get positive results from an abs equipped bike........

This is a very good point. But in my opinion you can go too fast on the street with regular brakes. Even if you know the road very well, things happen. I was behind my buddy on a road we knew, there were homes, but not right at this down hill straight away. So my buddy is in front and a cow was loose got startled by the pipe and started charging across the road. My friend nailed the brakes, and could not stop. Fortunately the cow nailed hers better, and my friend could have stuck his hand out and touched the cow on the head as he was going by. The cow made it across the center line to our lane. I know my friend was having a heart check, but the look on that cows face was amazing, wide eyed and mouth wide open, probably screaming.

Any way at my point in life I have to believe that the faster cornering belongs on the track. I would like to experienc the benefit you brought up, now you got me thinking I need another bike with abs for track days.
I have not done track day, but hope to. If abs is quicker, I may still be out of contention, but I will have fun.

 

[Xplorguy]

This is a very good point. But in my opinion you can go too fast on the street with regular brakes. Even if you know the road very well, things happen. I was behind my buddy on a road we knew, there were homes, but not right at this down hill straight away. So my buddy is in front and a cow was loose got startled by the pipe and started charging across the road. My friend nailed the brakes, and could not stop. Fortunately the cow nailed hers better, and my friend could have stuck his hand out and touched the cow on the head as he was going by. The cow made it across the center line to our lane. I know my friend was having a heart check, but the look on that cows face was amazing, wide eyed and mouth wide open, probably screaming.

Any way at my point in life I have to believe that the faster cornering belongs on the track. I would like to experienc the benefit you brought up, now you got me thinking I need another bike with abs for track days.
I have not done track day, but hope to. If abs is quicker, I may still be out of contention, but I will have fun.

Brian, I am with you on this one and understand what you are saying and am in total agreement. My point is to be taken by a skilled rider on the track or on the twisties....who is willing to take some additional risk...lazer sharp focus is required at all times. I personally am not a big fan of tight, blind curves for just the reason you mentioned.........we have alot of them in the mountains here in Oregon...

 

[kutter]

We've got a lot of them here in the hills around Pittsburgh. Big uphills, big down, lots of curves; its a ball on a bike. It being more populated, you can come over a hill & encounter a car, or truck & hard braking could easily be called for. I typically, get off the throttle before I crest the hill, for that reason.

I got the lesson on the dirt many years ago when I tried a few times to climb a large loose hill, only to lose traction & have to go back down. I had a pretty good straight section before the hill so I got a big run, had my 175cc Puch revved out in 3rd, & as I was flying up the hill (I was 15 yrs old) I had thoughts of getting some serious air off the top, as I only down shifted once & still was strung out in 2nd by the time I reached the top. As I cleared the edge of the top with my vision I clearly saw that there was no flat at the top & I could see nothing so I let go of the bars & stepped off, as I gazed at all the trees I would be jumping into at the bottom of the hill. My little 2 stroke Puch did get some air, before it landed about 2/3 down the other side and layed down & slid to the bottom. It wasn't easy climbing out of there but the experience was forever etched in my brain. I don't blow over the top of anything where I don't know what's on the other side.

 

[ferrix]

I promised myself my next bike will have ABS. I don't know why you wouldn't want something with minimal downside, yet potentially life or at least skin saving. Here are my answers to the common objections:

'We managed for years without it' - Well... cars managed that too, but these days you'd be hard pressed to find a new model without it. Cars used to 'manage' without the seat belts as well. We managed without fuel injection, electric starters... you get my drift.

'Racers don't use it' - racers don't need to worry about cars pulling out of the driveways, crazy taxi drivers doing unexpected u-turns because they spotted a fare on the other side of the road, stray dogs and children, or any number of possible emergencies. They also have a completely different set of priorities: they get paid for going as fast as they can, and nothing else matters. They also have a crew and mechanics to do the work. I don't get paid at all - on the other hand I do get to pay for any and all repairs. So getting there a second earlier means nothing to me - but avoiding any possible damage rates high on my list of priorities. Besides I don't like pain, so sue me.

'Small bikes don't need ABS' - Dream on! Very high speed crashes get most of the (negative) press, but most accidents occur at legal speeds, in normal everyday traffic conditions. Any bike, large or small, reaches those speeds. These accidents might not neccessarily be deadly - so what? I'd still rather avoid them... see above.

'It adds weight'. Oh please! It adds less than 5 kilos, what difference does it make in everyday riding? If you're that concerned, go on a diet to make up for it! Most of us could use to lose 5 kilos, I know I could

 

[Brian]

Xplorguy, I knew why you were hesitant to make the post. Sometimes I just toss my thoughts. I could have shortened it to abs wont replace practicing skills. Like you said extreme focus. I made most of my mistakes on a bike in my youth, as a new rider. So with all the valid points I hope I never regret getting non abs.

 

[Luke]

Interesting discussion.... Keith Code has a book out named Twist of the Wrist - it was recommended to me by an much-more-experienced rider and it spends a generous amount of time talking about brakes and how destabilizing they are.

After some thought, I put a deposit down on a non-abs CBR250. Several reasons, but the main was that (as previously noted) 3/4 of your braking force on dry pavement should come from the front wheel. It's been years since i rode a bike, but I expect to spend the better part of a set of tires learning how to stop this one efficiently.

If you look in the brochure for the new Ford Edge, you'll see a disclaimer below the rosy talk about ABS and traction control that says these devices "will not let you ignore the laws of physics". Cute quote, but very true. My bet is that if you grab a handful of brakes at the wrong time you are going to be on the ground, ABS or no ABS.

In a crisis, people react on instinct - and the only way to alter instincts is through training. If the first time you really put your brakes (abs or non-abs) to the test is in an emergency, you've lost.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[ferrix]

If you look in the brochure for the new Ford Edge, you'll see a disclaimer below the rosy talk about ABS and traction control that says these devices "will not let you ignore the laws of physics".

They won't let you ignore the laws of physics, but they might bend them a little There is some statistical evidence they do work, you know - it comes from studies done by the insurance companies, who I'd imagine don't have any particular interest in the matter other than reducing the amount of claims they pay out... I mean, it's not like they profit from selling the technology as such. The most recent such study I could find comes from 2010 and it found that comparing models with ABS to the same models without ABS, those with ABS were "37 percent less likely to be in fatal crashes per 10,000 registered vehicle years." Another statistic they quote is that bike models with ABS have 22 percent fewer claims for damage per insured vehicle year.

You can find the study on the net if you want to go to the source. The only thing that might skew the results of those studies is perhaps that riders who forked out extra cash on ABS might be more mature and cautious to begin with, hence less likely to hit the deck... I don't know. My view is that ABS is not a magic solution and certainly not a replacement for rider skills but it is still a tool that can be useful enough and since having it doesn't compromise my riding, why not? I know I'm not infallible, especially in emergency situation, and any help I can get is welcome as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Minidee]

I'm new to motorcycling and this will be my first bike. I think ferrix convinced me enough to choose ABS. I've been reading this thread and was iffy if i wanted non-ABS or with ABS. I was leaning toward non-ABS since I've been impatient and could get one like next week from the Honda Powerhouse and to think i should learn without to practice the skill of not requiring ABS assistant. But for safety reasons when it comes to daily commuting and traffic, street motorcyclist have more obstacles to worry about than racers on tracks. I think I'll be patient and wait for the ABS than gamble my life to save $500 which could've saved my life.

 

[Luke]

As I stated earlier, just my opinion. My daughter was involved in an accident a few weeks ago on her civic, I was in the passenger seat, a car turned in front of her and stopped. She nailed the brakes in record time, abs and all, and slide right into his front bumper. If she had jinked a foot to the right, she would have missed him with no brakes required.

Get what you want, but I have issues with comparing auto abs to motorcycles - everything from dynamics to design is totally different. I also think (agreeing with ferrix) that bike owners buying abs are much more cautious than the average biker, but not all bikers.

I've been in fire & rescue for 30 years. Motorcycle accidents I've responded to almost always are a) High-power sportbikes (aka zoom-splats in EMS jargon) going way too fast or b) someone turning in front of a bike. Easy to avoid (a), but (b) requires an intimate knowledge of the limits of your bike - and yourself.

Right or wrong, I tend to think of things like ABS as akin to Thermal Imaging Cameras used by firefighters. Great tool, but rookie firefighters tend to depend on them to the exclusion of their senses and their training - left alone, they will advance too far into a deteriorating situation, and if (when) the camera fails, they have no other options.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I like things simple. ABS or not, the CBR250 should be a great motorcycle. Have fun with it, but remember that it will cripple you if you get complacent, whether you choose to "gamble with your life" or not.

 

[Luke]

My opinions aside, I just noticed that BMW will make ABS standard on their full line in 2012, so obviously they and the bulk of their customers think it's a benefit.

Like I said, maybe I'm just a dinosaur....

 

[ferrix]

I've been in fire & rescue for 30 years. Motorcycle accidents I've responded to almost always are a) High-power sportbikes (aka zoom-splats in EMS jargon) going way too fast or b) someone turning in front of a bike.

Not to make light of your experience, but I think it is an interesting example to illustrate how 'I believe what I see' attitude, while certainly valid, can be also somewhat misleading if you don't consider other sources... In your case you saw the more serious accidents where fire and rescue was called upon. What about all the low-impact spills you never saw? What about the accidents that were narrowly avoided - possibly precisely because the driver/rider had ABS?

I'm not a rookie - I've been riding for more than 10 years, most of it daily commuting in city traffic. In this time I've had one low-speed spill approaching a small roundabout that I go through every day, sometimes several times a day... but that one time it was raining, there was something on the wet surface I didn't see - oil or some gravel or something.. and down I went, at no more than 30km/hr. Fire and rescue never saw that accident, it was never recorded in any statistics... but it still cost me several hundred bucks and a few bruises and quite possibly it wouldn't happen if my bike had ABS.

The other near-accident I can recall happened early in my riding career, also at less than 30km/hr: on an inner city intersection, two narrow, built up streets - a car ignored his stop sign and came right at me. I hit the brakes but as I was already turning a bit it locked the wheel. I didn't actually go down that time because I was going so slow and on a small, light bike so I managed to save it with my leg - probably not a good idea in hindsight! Again, ABS would've probably helped me there.

So yes, I believe ABS is useful. The more I ride and the more experience I have, the less gung-ho I get about the whole deal. Maybe I'm turning into an old fart!

 

[Luke]

That's why they make both versions - hope you enjoy yours as much as I'm planning to enjoy mine.

 

[kutter]

She nailed the brakes in record time, abs and all, and slide right into his front bumper. If she had jinked a foot to the right, she would have missed him with no brakes required.

1 good thing about not locking up your tires w/ ABS is that you can still manuever while braking, even panick braking. Steering still works because the tires still have traction. You have to not freeze up in the panic, of course.

I've said it before but I think its important enough to repeat that with the best braking skills ABS could still save your hide in numerous compromized braking situations. The only reason I know to not get it is the extra cost, although getting your CBR quicker might also play in.