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sounds to me,like luke wish he bought ABS version.he's just trying to justify the reason he bought the bike without it,shudda went for the extra $500,lol
ABS on the Honda CBR250R?
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745 Posts
Well, Jersey, you'd be wrong - I think you confused an unwillingness to waste time with soul-searching.
Fact is, if you've been riding bikes for awhile, you know how to use the front brake. Another fact is, according to the people who have reviewed the cbr250, is that abs works only if you use the foot pedal - if you grab the front brake like most of us have been taught, you can still lock it up - probably easier since now your right foot is clamping the center puck on the front wheel and your right hand is loading the other two. When the wheel stops turning, abs will supposedly release the center puck - new set of variables..
If you're going to ride like most of the BMW guys I know, with the communications and the ipod and the nav system, then I will concede you likely need abs. However, keep in mind that this isn't your Playstation - inattention or lack of ability may lead to a "game over" that can't be restarted.
Ride safe.
Luke
Fact is, if you've been riding bikes for awhile, you know how to use the front brake. Another fact is, according to the people who have reviewed the cbr250, is that abs works only if you use the foot pedal - if you grab the front brake like most of us have been taught, you can still lock it up - probably easier since now your right foot is clamping the center puck on the front wheel and your right hand is loading the other two. When the wheel stops turning, abs will supposedly release the center puck - new set of variables..
If you're going to ride like most of the BMW guys I know, with the communications and the ipod and the nav system, then I will concede you likely need abs. However, keep in mind that this isn't your Playstation - inattention or lack of ability may lead to a "game over" that can't be restarted.
Ride safe.
Luke
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745 Posts
From the Motorcycle Daily review, referenced under the news topic:
"The Honda’s brakes deserve some attention. The standard model gets a two-piston caliper and a 296mm front disk, but there’s also an ABS version with a three-piston front caliper. It’s combined so that actuating the rear brake also activates the front caliper, depending on how much force is applied. Working the front lever doesn’t activate the rear brake, allowing for more “sporting use.” Stoppies, anyone?"
"It’s combined so that actuating the rear brake also activates the front caliper, depending on how much force is applied". Implies that the rear brake gets first nod, despite the fact that everyone (MSF included) says that 75% of your stopping force needs to come from the front brake. Logical from a programming point of view, but as the weight shifts forward under heavy braking and the rear wheel unloads, the bias has to shift seriously toward the front.
"Working the front lever doesn’t activate the rear brake, allowing for more “sporting use.” Stoppies, anyone?" If you can do a stoppie, you can lock the front wheel. So, you can teach yourself to never use the front brake lever and probably never lock up the front wheel -but you're extending your minimum stopping distances significantly. And no, you can't teach yourself to only use the front brake when it's not raining - instincts don't work that way.
If you want ABS, by all means get it. However, you're deluding yourself if you believe for a minute that ABS will save you in most situations - it won't. Proper situation recognition and reaction ("See - Evaluate - Execute" in MSF jargon) will.
I realize that I'm not going to change your mind, not really trying to. Arguing on the internet is like playing Russian Roulette - even if you win, you're still stupid.
Here's to safe and responsible riders and drivers. That way, everyone gets to go home.
Luke
"The Honda’s brakes deserve some attention. The standard model gets a two-piston caliper and a 296mm front disk, but there’s also an ABS version with a three-piston front caliper. It’s combined so that actuating the rear brake also activates the front caliper, depending on how much force is applied. Working the front lever doesn’t activate the rear brake, allowing for more “sporting use.” Stoppies, anyone?"
"It’s combined so that actuating the rear brake also activates the front caliper, depending on how much force is applied". Implies that the rear brake gets first nod, despite the fact that everyone (MSF included) says that 75% of your stopping force needs to come from the front brake. Logical from a programming point of view, but as the weight shifts forward under heavy braking and the rear wheel unloads, the bias has to shift seriously toward the front.
"Working the front lever doesn’t activate the rear brake, allowing for more “sporting use.” Stoppies, anyone?" If you can do a stoppie, you can lock the front wheel. So, you can teach yourself to never use the front brake lever and probably never lock up the front wheel -but you're extending your minimum stopping distances significantly. And no, you can't teach yourself to only use the front brake when it's not raining - instincts don't work that way.
If you want ABS, by all means get it. However, you're deluding yourself if you believe for a minute that ABS will save you in most situations - it won't. Proper situation recognition and reaction ("See - Evaluate - Execute" in MSF jargon) will.
I realize that I'm not going to change your mind, not really trying to. Arguing on the internet is like playing Russian Roulette - even if you win, you're still stupid.
Here's to safe and responsible riders and drivers. That way, everyone gets to go home.
Luke
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24 Posts
The ABS still works if you only use the front brake, it just won't be combined with the rear brake.
Luke I'm also going for no ABS, but only because I'm broke, and I want to learn proper braking principles as a newbie, like probably everyone here did.
Luke I'm also going for no ABS, but only because I'm broke, and I want to learn proper braking principles as a newbie, like probably everyone here did.
Luke! I do believe the C-ABS on the CBR250 works two ways: with rear brake only activated, you will apply abs to the rear brake and after some delay..it will apply the center puck on the front brake. If the front brake only is applied you will immediately activate abs for the front brake utilizing the two outside pucks but the rear brake will not be activated. Neither the front nor rear wheel can lock up with this system.
The MSF teaches to apply rear and front brake at the same time for normal stopping situations. This allows for minumum upsetting of the bikes handling characteristics. They also acknowledge that the front brake manages about 70% of your stopping power...hence under a situation where stopping quickly is important..the Honda system ,on this bike, allows for hard pressure on the front brake without lockup.
Please review the articles you have read and include the Honda site. We need to be together on this as it is important to understand the basics of how the system works on this bike. I am a big advocate of ABS on motorcycles but aside from that...I don't want prospective buyers to think the system only works some of the time and therefore thinks it is not useful or worth the money.
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I tend to agree with you Luke and it is important that riders aren't led to believe that ABS is a panacea that will magically "save" them from an imminent riding disaster. I hope most realize as you've stated, that proper preparedness (recognition and reaction) are essential to safer riding. However, you state that in most situations "Proper situation recognition and reaction ("See - Evaluate - Execute" in MSF jargon) will" [save you]. This is misleading. Proper situation recognition and reaction will reduce the likelihood of getting into trouble. And this is why such preparation is vital to safer riding. But even the best intentioned, knowledgeable, vigilant, experienced, skilled, and situationally aware riders can make mistakes. So what is wrong with combining technology and rider experience to reduce risk even further? That is why I would advocate for continually improving riding skills and knowledge, awareness, planning, executing, and reacting in combination with ABS. I don't have any impirical evidence to support this - but I am willing to bet that the overall safest bet for most people to reduce the likelihood of getting into trouble would be a combination of all the factors you advocate AND an ABS equipped ride.
Mike
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745 Posts
Actually, i did read the articles - I've been searching for and comparing all of the information I could find about this bike from the day I heard about it. Motorcycle Daily says you can do stoppies (quoted above, in the news section) and that the outside two pucks on the front disc are activated by the handlebar lever. Motorcycle-USA says "The combined ABS system adds another piston to the front braking arrangement, with the rear pedal actuating a combined braking force front and rear. The front brake operates independently" Link: 2011 Honda CBR250R First Look - Motorcycle USA
Every article I've read references ABS being controlled by the brake pedal and the front brake operating independently - that implies to me that if you use the lever, you're not in ABS land. Admittedly, most of these articles are "First Look", but the fact they are all using essentially the same words says there's a press release somewhere.
Honda makes two ABS systems - one for "large" tourers (motor-driven ABS modulators) and one for "Scooters" (ECU-driven ABS mods). I'm told that this is the system on the CBR250, supported by a couple of articles that state the 250 ABS is not the latest and greatest Honda ABS technology. If you look at the diagrams (Honda Worldwide | Technology Close-up) you see that the flow of the rear circuit has all of the proportioning logic. You may also note that the front circuit has two solenoid valves (above and below the ABS modulator) that could utilize the sensors to keep the front wheel from locking even if you grabbed all of the lever you could get. However, if that's the case, there will be no stoppies with this bike (which is good - stoppies are for idiots). it all depends on the design and the programming.
I'm not even sure how many of these "sources" have even ridden this bike - the text and pictures in some of the "reviews" reek of Press Release. Until someone that doesn't depend on Honda for income does a comprehensive test of the bike, we won't know.
Guys, look: If you want ABS, get it - it's a personal choice, you may even get a slight break on your insurance (be sure to ask). But just because other, maybe more, maybe less experienced riders decide that's not the route they want to take, it doesn't necessarily mean they're "risking their lives" or being stupid.
As always, my opinion.
Luke
Every article I've read references ABS being controlled by the brake pedal and the front brake operating independently - that implies to me that if you use the lever, you're not in ABS land. Admittedly, most of these articles are "First Look", but the fact they are all using essentially the same words says there's a press release somewhere.
Honda makes two ABS systems - one for "large" tourers (motor-driven ABS modulators) and one for "Scooters" (ECU-driven ABS mods). I'm told that this is the system on the CBR250, supported by a couple of articles that state the 250 ABS is not the latest and greatest Honda ABS technology. If you look at the diagrams (Honda Worldwide | Technology Close-up) you see that the flow of the rear circuit has all of the proportioning logic. You may also note that the front circuit has two solenoid valves (above and below the ABS modulator) that could utilize the sensors to keep the front wheel from locking even if you grabbed all of the lever you could get. However, if that's the case, there will be no stoppies with this bike (which is good - stoppies are for idiots). it all depends on the design and the programming.
I'm not even sure how many of these "sources" have even ridden this bike - the text and pictures in some of the "reviews" reek of Press Release. Until someone that doesn't depend on Honda for income does a comprehensive test of the bike, we won't know.
Guys, look: If you want ABS, get it - it's a personal choice, you may even get a slight break on your insurance (be sure to ask). But just because other, maybe more, maybe less experienced riders decide that's not the route they want to take, it doesn't necessarily mean they're "risking their lives" or being stupid.
As always, my opinion.
Luke
Luke! Appreciate your input ! I do think the Honda Wordwide site and the abs diagram says it all. We could use the accurate input of an owner: apply the front brake only in a controlled test and check for abs activation..probably some pulsing would be felt.
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Completely agree. Otherwise, almost all of us currently would be carelessly and stupidly "risking our lives" on non-ABS equipped bikes as that is what most of us ride right now.
Mike
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745 Posts
Thanks, Xplorguy - I really wasn't trying to initiate a tree-wetting contest. By the way, the next page on the Honda article says that the majority of the people with ABS like it, so I do not believe that anyone going that route is making a "bad" decision.
I like manual trannies in cars and single-action auto pistols (1911s) as well, so you can always argue that I'm too old to know better.
Luke
I like manual trannies in cars and single-action auto pistols (1911s) as well, so you can always argue that I'm too old to know better.
Luke
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745 Posts
Great point - and some would argue that we're carelessly and stupidly risking our lives by riding a motorcycle at all.
I went down to Guatemala to teach in 2010 - the risks that the guys on motorcycles take in the traffic in Guatemala City was frightening to say the least. Puts everything in a whole new perspective.
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Thanks Xplorguy! I tried to make the trip report entertaining, yet descriptive and informative for others thinking about doing the same thing. I had so much fun doing it - I am hoping by sharing it I might inspire others on this site to tour and camp on their CBR250Rs.
Mike
Luke! You sound like a pretty smart guy to me..I would ride with you anytime..........
CBR250R guy! I get the touring/camping idea...have done a good bit of it myself and hope to do more of it with the CBR250......
I personally will NOT buy an ABS bike. Generally, locking up a tire (especially the front) is more about traction than braking.
Wet pavement, sand, and gravel tend to be the real culprit and in those situations I either avoid riding or conservatively use the throttle and brake using the engine as well as light braking. Similar to how one drives a car when it's snowing.
Another anecdotal reason I will not buy an ABS is that I like being able to lock up my rear tire. Not only is it occasionally fun but its useful. I once had the typical 'car pulls a left hand turn in the path of a motorcycle' scenario* during a wet winter's day. The car stopped in my lane on a narrow 2 lane road. I locked up the rear tire and slid the bike into the car and pushed off onto the pavement in the other direction.I did not hit the car but my bike did. The driver was ticketed and I was fine.
Practice your panic stops.
(*This is covered extensively in the Hurt Report)
Wet pavement, sand, and gravel tend to be the real culprit and in those situations I either avoid riding or conservatively use the throttle and brake using the engine as well as light braking. Similar to how one drives a car when it's snowing.
Another anecdotal reason I will not buy an ABS is that I like being able to lock up my rear tire. Not only is it occasionally fun but its useful. I once had the typical 'car pulls a left hand turn in the path of a motorcycle' scenario* during a wet winter's day. The car stopped in my lane on a narrow 2 lane road. I locked up the rear tire and slid the bike into the car and pushed off onto the pavement in the other direction.I did not hit the car but my bike did. The driver was ticketed and I was fine.
Practice your panic stops.
(*This is covered extensively in the Hurt Report)
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147 Posts
ok,thats it,im going for a cam am spyder now,lmao
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abs is really only effective while going straight, or on a surface like gravel. It's not going to help you on curves. If you're smart and use both brakes, down shift properly and think ahead, you should never have to stop fast in an emergency. Best emergency move is avoidance anyway, because we all know a motorcycle isn't going to stop as fast as a car anyway.
I think the bottom line though, it's not going to hurt you to have it! So if you're patient and willing to spend the extra 500, why not?
I think the bottom line though, it's not going to hurt you to have it! So if you're patient and willing to spend the extra 500, why not?
If you look at a diagram on this page: Honda Worldwide | CBR250R there seems to be a path from the front lever to the modulator and then front brake... I don't know for sure either, but I think ABS activated exclusively by the rear brake pedal would be very strange indeed.
I think what the articles are saying is that rear pedal activates one of the pistons on the front brake, while front brake does not activate anything at the rear - this is the 'combined' aspect of the system, which is independent from ABS aspect.
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