[p4i1]

Clutch-less up-shifting again.
I am perfecting my clutch-less up-shifting. Noticed that sometimes when I try to pre-load shifter - it does not stop, but moves up. I think it mostly happens when I up-shift to 4'th. Is it a defect or normal?
When this happens I fix it by engaging the clutch.

Also i noticed that sometimes ~1-2 seconds after shift happen i feel one like more "push forward" (very subtle). What could it be?

 

[jkv357]

Sorry, can't help ya - I see no good reason to shift clutch-less in normal riding - especially on a CBR250R.

Expect some trans problems eventually.


Jay

 

[Aufitt]

Dont do it if you cant do it smoothly.. and no advantage except into 5th and 6th @ 8500+ rpm even then... only on the track.

 

[kd7svh]

Clutchless upshifting can result in much smoother gear transition and it's perfectly fine for off track use also. Yes, while first learning how to do it right it will generate increase wear on the gears, but once you have mastered the technique it will not harm your trans at all and in fact will lessen clutch wear.

 

[jkv357]

Clutchless upshifting can result in much smoother gear transition and it's perfectly fine for off track use also. Yes, while first learning how to do it right it will generate increase wear on the gears, but once you have mastered the technique it will not harm your trans at all and in fact will lessen clutch wear.

Really? I guess it's those shifts that it takes to master it that does any damage then, after that it's all good. It might make a quicker shift, but not a smoother one. Even if done well I still don't see an advantage or reason to it for normal riding.

Not using the clutch would reduce clutch wear though...


Jay

 

[kd7svh]

Really? I guess it's those shifts that it takes to master it that does any damage then, after that it's all good. It might make a quicker shift, but not a smoother one. Even if done well I still don't see an advantage or reason to it for normal riding.

Not using the clutch would reduce clutch wear though...


Jay

It is smoother once you master it. I'm not saying you shouldn't use your clutch, I'm saying that clutchless upshifting is smoother because you aren't loading and unloading your suspension with throttle roll-off and rear wheel power disengage then rengage and throttle. By preloading your shifter and blipping the throttle at the right RPM the gears slide in with a fraction of the change to your suspension balance.

Yes I can see this method doing damage to your trans if you are constantly trying to force gears without the correct RPM but even then it would take a LOT of force attempts to even begin to possibly hurt your transmission. Look at some of the speed shifters in the new track bikes, they basically do the RPM blip for you and you never have to touch the clutch. I believe they even work for downshifting.

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative or sound like some kind of smart ass know it all (which from your reply it looks like that's what you thought). But I started practicing clutchless upshifting after many riders I have lots of respect for and who have decades of riding experience explained the process, how it works, why it's good and that it doesn't harm your trans. So far my practice has resulted in the exact results they explained, far smoother shifting. Now sure, my personal experience could just be illusion and all those experienced riders could be wrong, but I'm gonna opt with them being right.

 

[jkv357]

It is smoother once you master it. I'm not saying you shouldn't use your clutch, I'm saying that clutchless upshifting is smoother because you aren't loading and unloading your suspension with throttle roll-off and rear wheel power disengage then rengage and throttle. By preloading your shifter and blipping the throttle at the right RPM the gears slide in with a fraction of the change to your suspension balance.

Yes I can see this method doing damage to your trans if you are constantly trying to force gears without the correct RPM but even then it would take a LOT of force attempts to even begin to possibly hurt your transmission. Look at some of the speed shifters in the new track bikes, they basically do the RPM blip for you and you never have to touch the clutch. I believe they even work for downshifting.

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative or sound like some kind of smart ass know it all (which from your reply it looks like that's what you thought). But I started practicing clutchless upshifting after many riders I have lots of respect for and who have decades of riding experience explained the process, how it works, why it's good and that it doesn't harm your trans. So far my practice has resulted in the exact results they explained, far smoother shifting. Now sure, my personal experience could just be illusion and all those experienced riders could be wrong, but I'm gonna opt with them being right.

OK, but if you are clutchless upshifting so you don't upset your suspension, you're on the wrong bike. "Upsetting" your suspension while upshifting really should be an issue on the street on a CBR250R.

If it's working for you - fine - but I wouldn't suggest it to "normal" CBR street riders as a way to keep their suspension "settled".

I've been doing this (riding and racing) a while myself, but certainly do as you like.


Jay

 

[Rick]

clutchless up and down shifting

I can do smooth up shifting in every gear, and downshifting in every gear except into neutral. I usually only do this when my left hand is not on the bar.

 

[lenbrinke]

when i shift taking off i just lightly two finger the clutch as
i'm subconsciously throttling to the right tempo shifting up.
could do the same downshifting but rather coast when possible
to save fuel.
shifting should be second nature after awhile on any vehicle.
to shift all the time without using the clutch does seem strange
but hey whatever floats your boat.

 

[Aufitt]

I can do smooth up shifting in every gear, and downshifting in every gear except into neutral. I usually only do this when my left hand is not on the bar.

Why are you riding one handed?

 

[kflaig]

Why are you riding one handed?

Aufitt, that's not a very polite question.

 

[superanium]

If you know what you're doing, here is nothing wrong with clutchless upshifting. In fact the transmission is designed to do this. If you don't know what you're doing, don't.
A working knowledge of transmissions helps with understanding what you are doing.

 

[Honda CBR 250 Rider]

I've done this both up and down and I can see absolutely not benefit from it unless you're racing and don't mess it up, otherwise I would only do this if the clutch is ruined.

 

[kflaig]

Why are you riding one handed?

Come on Aufitt, the reason is obvious, he knows that riding no-handed is dangerous!

 

[Goyble]

Sorry, can't help ya - I see no good reason to shift clutch-less in normal riding - especially on a CBR250R.Jay

That's because you don't know what you are doing. Once you get used to it, you may actually enjoy not using your clutch as much.

Jay

.Expect some trans problems eventually.


Jay

.Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Motorcycle transmissions are constant mesh sequential transmissions with no synchros..
There is less erosion/ wear of parts if you shift without the clutch. It is also faster and smoother to change gears without the clutch.

 

[Goyble]

I've done this both up and down and I can see absolutely not benefit from it unless you're racing

The obvious benefit is not having to use the clutch. The other benefit is smoother gear changes. You may appreciate the benifits if you get some experience.

 

[jkv357]

That's because you don't know what you are doing. Once you get used to it, you may actually enjoy not using your clutch as much.

Jay.Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Motorcycle transmissions are constant mesh sequential transmissions with no synchros..
There is less erosion/ wear of parts if you shift without the clutch. It is also faster and smoother to change gears without the clutch.

Explain how reducing the forces on the gears (using the clutch) as you change them causes more wear.

Are you talking about leaving the throttle-position the same, or rolling off the throttle as you shift.

Either way, no need to be a dick about it.


Jay

 

[Metalstorm]

Less wear on the clutch due to it always being fully engaged with the flywheel. (no slippage).

I've done a few clutchless up shifts just for giggles and I was VERY impressed with the tranny.

Preload the shifter, roll the throttle off quickly and it just snicks up a cog smooth as butter. You can't feel the transition at all.

I wouldn't dare do clutchless down shifts (especially without a slipper clutch) but up shifts won't hurt if done well.

On Edit: I meant to say clutchless upshifts on THIS bike and other bikes with similar transmissions (read: well designed) are fine.
If I tried to do clutchless up shifts on my last bike (Buell XB12S) I would leave a trail of tranny parts on the road behind me.

 

[Stratton]

Lets see the cost of replacing a couple of clutches over the life of the bike or the cost of replacing a transmission............lemme think...............

I just feel that's a poor reason, however once you are good at it I doubt if you are going to hurt the transmission, but then again clutches also last a long long time when used correctly.

Roadracing I always did clutchless upshifts but that was with a quickshifter that momentarily cuts the ignition just enough for the gear to slip in, a very good product.

I never did clutchless downshifts or set up the quickshifter for that even though it was available. I also never ran a slipper clutch, just "blip the throttle between downshifts" to match the engine speed and avoid rear wheel chatter.

I think it's all about being smooth. Once you have that down, speed is free

 

[Goyble]

Lets see the cost of replacing a couple of clutches over the life of the bike or the cost of replacing a transmission............lemme think...............

You'll never have to replace a transmission due to not using the clutch.
Learn what a constant mesh sequential transmission is and you will understand why clutch-less shifts will not hurt anything.