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And @Tamir are you saying the dowel pins also hold the gasket in place?...
...
I don't generally like using grease, just because it loves to attract dirt,...

...but I can't argue with 36 years of results lol.
Yes, the dowel pins hold the gasket just fine, but with engine oil it is stay in place even better.

Note: Not all the dowel pins in the picture below (Right Cover / Clutch Cover) are for the paper seal, for the paper seal there are only two dowel, one on each sides. The others are to support the 3 O-Rings.
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Regarding grease that catching dirt on it, this is the reason I lubricate my chain with gear-oil SAE90 (the oil does not catching dirt, on the contrary, it washed the dirt). I oiled every 250-500 km.

Regarding Great Danno馃ご, his great contribution here to the forum, and his extensive experience... I have many disagreements with him. All in good spirits. The man certainly knows what he is talking about, but I have found that many times his professional methods do not match my abilities as a hobbyist. Apparently being an amateur is a separate specialty. I am a amateur mechanic enthusiast with a strong relation to mechanical engineering, even around those Danno years, about 35 years (maybe more).
 
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If I can ride a 600 for an hour without back pain would be great, if not I think I'd stick with a 650
In terms of power, both are far too strong for most riders. To know what to do with these powers(HP) you need to be a professional rider, or a professional amateur rider.
Regarding back pain, where there is power there are also illegal speeds, and if you don't want the wind to tear you off the motorcycle, you must go under the canopy. The seating position in the 600 supports high speeds. For cruising speeds buy the "street" (650). Sitting upright relieves strain mainly from the hands (and if you are a professional rider, it relieves you from increased use of the abdominal muscles). The lying down sitting position do not creates the problem for the back, the back suffers great G loads because of the crazy accelerations these sports bikes are capable of.
 

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Thank you! Ill look them up! On a low CC bike I feel a smooth clutch is sooo important since you generally shift so much more often.
The CBR250R is designed to pamper the rider, part of the pampering is a clutch lever that is very easy to press. If you choose a set of reinforced springs, you will be prepared to strengthen your palm. And if you are Popeye, what I wrote is not relevant for you.
 
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I'm curious what model year CBR600RR is it?Is it comfortable to ride compared to the 250r? I'm looking to buy a second bike and not sure between the new CBR600RR or the CBR650R.
The 600rr is more of a race bike whereas the 650r is more of a street bike. I erred by buying a 650cc ninja thinking it was more powerful/faster than the 600cc and I was horribly mistaken. Those number have very little meaning anymore. It has a little more torque in the low rpm but really, I prefer all that power way up in the high-end of the RPM range.
I have 2005 CBR600RR. Bought specifically for track about 15 yrs ago.


Recently my wife bought me 2007 CBR600RR for racing. It is very light bike, still 40kg heavier than my 250 race-bike, but has 4x power.


I started racing Ninja 250 about 5-yrs ago (when I sold my CBR250). Got 2nd in season championship my 1st year. Then 1st after that. I'm now 3-5s/lap away from 250 lap-records at most tracks (Thunderhill, Sears Point Sonoma, Laguna Seca, etc.). But... I have no desire to break them, just to get faster myself.


For me, performance is 100% priority, don't care about looks, mileage or ergonomics. When I raced bicycles, I would spend 2-6hrs/day training and sitting on one of these!!! :eek:
 

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(y)(y)(y)
SEALEY - They have great tools at affordable prices.
WEMOTO - Excellent online store with excellent customer service.
You bought the most useful size (7Nm to 112Nm), and I think you will really enjoy it.
TIPS:
  • Read the operating instructions carefully.
  • After each use you will reset the torque to zero,
  • Try not to get hit, that will take it out of calibration.
  • Don't try to tighten small screws with it!!! See explanation below).
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For small side case bolts with low torque, 3/8" clicker torque wrench is not best tool because there won't be loud click.
YES
You don't have to hear the click loudly.
I've already seen mechanics who, after the click, decide to add another 1 or 2 degrees, you'll understand It?o_O. It's a matter of mechanic's feeling sense. And as far as mechanic's feeling sense is concerned, a torque meter is not a substitute for this thing (A "Mechanic's Feeling Sense"). Beginner mechanics need to take nuts and bolts of different sizes, let's say 6 and 10 millimeters, grab the nuts in a vise and destroy them. This is to get an idea of the flexibility of the metals, and when to stop from tightening. In my opinion, such practice is more important than purchasing a torque meter.
Regarding low torques with a torque meter whose range is 7-112Nm, it is true that for the low range it will be less effective OR NOT effective at all.
Not necessarily because of the CLICK issue, and maybe more because of two other issues:
1. If they have a long handle (370mm is LONG), because with a long handle it is easy to miss a small torques.
2. When talking about 4% accuracy, usually we are NOT talking about linear accuracy for the entire range, they are about that accuracy at the maximum measurement value (4% at full range).
4% of 112Nm is +/-4.5Nm. We don't want to tighten a screw "at 7Nm" when the accuracy is +/-4.5NM.
Such a torque meter has no value when it comes to the low range. Such a torque meter can only destroy small screws. As Danno said(y)(y)(y)
That is why it is recommended for the small ranges to buy a separate torque. meter.
 
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yes,
use torque-wrench for big bolts and big torque.
use torque-meter with numerical readouts for small bolts and small torque

What you will find is that humans tend to over-tighten small bolts and under-tighten big bolts.
 

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What you will find is that humans tend to over-tighten small bolts and under-tighten big bolts.
Maybe. Yours claim itself makes sense, BUT what about the opposite claim, a study that shows the damage that a torque meter creates?

You will find many explanations and "excuses" why most mechanics do not work with a torque meter. And to be personal, why I don't, an amateur mechanic for over 35 years, why I don't buy myself a set of torque meters (YET:))?

In the result test, I have excellent experience with tightening without a torque meter, otherwise I would have invested in such a set long time ago. In other words: I don't break screws, I don't destroy threads, screws don't come loose for me because they weren't tightened enough.
In the result test, a torque meter does not protect against human errors, such as:
  • adjusting to the wrong torque into the tool,
  • or using a large torque meter to tighten small screws,
  • poor maintenance that takes the tool out of calibration,
  • the owner do not perform periodic laboratory tests in order to maintain the calibration,
  • Sometimes when we come to assemble a disassembled assembly, we find that there is no access to the torque meter handle and them we must be tightened by hand to end the task,
  • The tool is not "idiots proof" from those who decide to add tightening "just to be safe" etc.
....I'm not saying we not need a torque meter in our tool box, I'm not looking to justify the fact that at that moment I don't have one, I'm just saying that at "result test" that moment has lasted for me 35 years,...:coffee:(y)

What is beautiful about "result test" that we cannot be argued with, is something that proves itself, self evident, is the pure truth.


What you will find at result test is that too many mechanics, professionals and hobbyists, destroy screws because no one bothered to teach them that there is such a thing: Mechanic's feeling sense that you can learn it easily (LINK).
 
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...you can learn it easily
Danno, as for the "easily", if it was that easy everyone would do it. That's why we understand that there is something deeper here. Maybe psychologically' maybe culturally, a humanly thing, this is the matter that Robert M. Pirsig talks about in his book: "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". Mechanics are in a hurry to finish the job, they don't have time to talk to the screws and ask them how they are feeling today. Most people don't talk to objects, and those who do...:unsure::coffee:
 
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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Thanks for the explanations, makes sense.
Although your math for accuracy explains why the torque wrench is not accurate at the low end, iv'e heard torque wrenches are inaccurate on both ends of the Nm scale, Min and Max Nm's. If the wrench holds a +/-4.5Nm accuracy across its full range, why would it be inaccurate at lets say 112Nm?

Also a little added question, I got gifted a torque wrench this week, it's a 5-25Nm bicycle torque wrench, would it work for 7Nm or lets say 24Nm bolts?
( https://www.leroymerlin.pt/Produtos/Ferramentas/Ferramentas-de-mao/Chaves/WPR_REF_82612444 )

As for the mechanic feel, I don't have a vice or a good place to break bolts to train, and it also feels like a skill that takes years or at least months of practice to confidently learn. At the moment, i just know Its not a skill I have yet developed, and before I do I still have much mechanics I want to do :) hence why I'm thinking about using a torque wrench.

I understand Danno's statistics though, they make sense but I believe the reason why the mechanics sense works nonetheless is because with enough skill those inaccuracies are so small (over tightening small bolts and under tightening big bolts) that although not optimal for the materials, they fall in I presume a Nm ''wiggle room'' around the recommended Nm value. Because over tightening a 7Nm bolt to 8Nm must create minimal to no wear on the materials.

Accuracy is always as relevant as the needed accuracy for the job afterall.
 

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If the wrench holds a +/-4.5Nm accuracy across its full range, why would it be inaccurate at lets say 112Nm?
In the case of your new torque meter, the manufacturer set the accuracy at percentages to 4%. According to the rule that the accuracy is to the "Full Scale": 4% out of 112Nm is equal to 4.5Nm.
Here is another example: At my caliber tool the accuracy is given in millimeters and not in percentages. It's write on the tool: "0.05". If the maximum size of my caliber is 150 millimeters, this time the accuracy can be calculated backwards in percentages (0.05:150)X100=0.03%.

0.03% is a percentage of accuracy that is acceptable in tools such as my caliber, just as 4% is a fairly reasonable accuracy for torque meters.

NO measuring device is absolutely accurate.
 

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Also a little added question, I got gifted a torque wrench this week, it's a 5-25Nm bicycle torque wrench, would it work for 7Nm or lets say 24Nm bolts?
To answer your question: "Will it work on ?___Nm or ?__Nm?, you need to understand what his level of accuracy. Maybe the accuracy is 20% and then you can not trusted it even in the high range.
  • How accurate it is?
  • And in what units: Percentages or Nm?
On the data page, in the link you attached, I did not see this important figure.
 

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As for the mechanic feel, I don't have a vice or a good place to break bolts to train, and it also feels like a skill that takes years or at least months of practice to confidently learn. At the moment, i just know Its not a skill I have yet developed, and before I do I still have much mechanics I want to do :) hence why I'm thinking about using a torque wrench.
Very well.
Only that a basic skill ("Mechanic's Feeling Sense") PRIOR to high skill (Torque Wrench). As strange as it sounds, and this is what I tried to explain at the beginning, that the use of a torque wrench does not give the kind of security you are talking about. Because operating a torque wrench also requires the basic experience at "Mechanic's Feeling Sense", And on top of that, you learning to use the "accurate" device.
it's the opposite of what you hear from others.
That's my opinion.
 

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I understand Danno's statistics though,
All the opinions are good. I just claim that the accepted statistics presented by Danno give a small part of the picture, it's says nothing about those well-known failures that people fall into precisely because they rely only on a torque meter. I tried to show you the all picture of this very serious issue. You read and the decisions you take is yours choices(y), everyone makes they choices for themselves and at their own risk.(y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
In the case of your new torque meter, the manufacturer set the accuracy at percentages to 4%. According to the rule that the accuracy is to the "Full Scale": 4% out of 112Nm is equal to 4.5Nm.
Here is another example: At my caliber tool the accuracy is given in millimeters and not in percentages. It's write on the tool: "0.05". If the maximum size of my caliber is 150 millimeters, this time the accuracy can be calculated backwards in percentages (0.05:150)X100=0.03%.

0.03% is a percentage of accuracy that is acceptable in tools such as my caliber, just as 4% is a fairly reasonable accuracy for torque meters.

NO measuring device is absolutely accurate.
Yeah I understand it's an ''across the full scale'' accuracy. At my lab most equipment uses accuracy across the full scale.

I'm just curious why in that case most people consider a torque wrench inaccurate at high values.

Ok so ACTUALLY thinking about it now i'm guessing it's because the error margin is higher (for some mechanical/engineering reason) on min and max settings starting in this case at 4% at min settings
BUT it fluctuates to a lower value of lets say 2 or 1% error on the middle of the torque scale for example 55Nm and then again gradually goes up to 4% margin of error on 112Nm. Like a graph that i'm too lazy to draw. That would answer my own question ''I'm just curious why in that case most people consider a torque wrench inaccurate at high values.''

To answer your question: "Will it work on ?___Nm or ?__Nm?, you need to understand what his level of accuracy. Maybe the accuracy is 20% and then you can not trusted it even in the high range.
  • How accurate it is?
  • And in what units: Percentages or Nm?
On the data page, in the link you attached, I did not see this important figure.
That's true, I need to go to the store and check because I don't have the manual for it.



Very well.
Only that a basic skill ("Mechanic's Feeling Sense") PRIOR to high skill (Torque Wrench). As strange as it sounds, and this is what I tried to explain at the beginning, that the use of a torque wrench does not give the kind of security you are talking about. Because operating a torque wrench also requires the basic experience at "Mechanic's Feeling Sense", And on top of that, you learning to use the "accurate" device.
it's the opposite of what you hear from others.
That's my opinion.
Oh yeah using a torque wrench requires technical skills for sure, and maintaining proper calibration. I just think for me at the moment that will take less effort and resources. One day for sure, I will start looking into training myself to tighten bolts without it!

All the opinions are good. I just claim that the accepted statistics presented by Danno give a small part of the picture, it's says nothing about those well-known failures that people fall into precisely because they rely only on a torque meter. I tried to show you the all picture of this very serious issue. You read and the decisions you take is yours choices(y), everyone makes they choices for themselves and at their own risk.(y)
100%, its not good to completely rely on any equipment when there will always be factor to failure.
 

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Still way, way more accurate than human senses...
Just test how accurate you get it, then verify with torque meter.
Oh, the claims at the research you bring, I have no problem accepting them, I'm just mentioning that this is a partial from the all story. You can't rely only on a torque meter, you can't, and those who rely only on a torque meter are not statistically achieving the goal of more accurate at tightening. I was pointing on some of the difficulties that lead to this bad result in my response here - (Link).
 

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I'm gonna try to get a budget for the clutch work off my mechanic tomorrow.

As for videos of clutch replacement, I found a TON... from thailand...and one from some russianesque comrads. Unfortunatelly I dont speak either language but I did however find a series of short videos by and american called ''Walden'' on the subject. I went ahead and created a playlist with them because hes got thousands of videos lol

I feel he didn't explain everything, He for sure skipped the bolts needed to remove the clutch but he did have some interesting additions, I liked him scratching the metal plates on concrete, im sure thats not in the service manual 馃槀

Also found this one, thailand, not the best angle but with some English commentary on the screen.


I'm also leaving the russian one because it has a really good camera angle and an actual cameraman! allthough I dont understand it and they didnt clearly bathe the plates in oil or even put oil on them (which I think is necessary right?) 馃槄

Would you say there are difficulties that aren't in the service manual? Or anything that requires special tools or products?
Can I not use a toothbrush or a rubber perhaps to remove the filter without scratching the aluminum sealing surface?



As for the coolant, this is the one I used:

View attachment 45751 View attachment 45752

It was given to me by Honda so I believe it should be right?
In both videos are missing that the new pads must be soaked in engine oil (oil bath), at least for half an hour before assembly, overnight is recommended. If the pads are not soaked in oil, the pads will not function properly and will wear out very quickly.
Video 1. Time line 426sec = LINK to YouTube
Video 2. Time line 385sec = LINK to YouTube
If I find a good deal and think I might need it down the road, I sometimes order parts in advance. I don't always use them, it's a kind of gamble that DIY mechanic take as they "managing" their spare parts warehouse. What is relevant here is that I received the clutch pads when they are already soaked in oil (The pictures below)... mmm interesting.
Clutch Pads - LINK to SUPERBIKERS
Clutch Plate - LINK to SUPERBIKERS
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