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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi, Firstly, sorry to start another thread. I'm 45 and can never remember where I read things. Anyway I read on here somewhere that if you rev to the red line and hit the limiter a few times general performance would be improved as the bike's electronics 'learns' from it (be gentle with me please Aufitt :) ).

Well I've done over 2000 miles so I did just that 4 or 5 times last week. I may have imagined it (placebo effect) but I really think the bike was brought to life. Can anyone confirm that this is likely? I'm quite prepared to crawl back into my hole and be quiet if I'm talking cr*p.

Steve.
 

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Say you'd met your dream girl, wined and dined her, lavished her with expensive shiny things, then you took her home but were only an absolute gentleman with her and spent the night having some indepth deep and meaningful boring conversation......

and all that time not knowing what she REALLY wanted and what she was actually capable of?

The cbr likes it hard, and gets better with age.
 

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For a car with an automatic trans, "learning" your driving is mostly reading throttle position and load to tell the transmission when to shift - so it wouldn't apply to a cycle.

I don't think the CBR's computer system is advanced enough to alter ignition timing or fuel map based on how you ride. Pretty sure it just runs a standard programmed fuel/timing map based on engine and intake temps.
 

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Learning Something New.

For a car with an automatic trans, "learning" your driving is mostly reading throttle position and load to tell the transmission when to shift - so it wouldn't apply to a cycle.

I don't think the CBR's computer system is advanced enough to alter ignition timing or fuel map based on how you ride. Pretty sure it just runs a standard programmed fuel/timing map based on engine and intake temps.
If you don't teach the computer, Who Will. Even with todays Vehicles, as advanced as they are. The computer is programmed with the BASIC Operations. It up to the OWNER, to teach the Computer your own unique Operating Style. It will continue to learn, until the ECM is reset, or the battery is disconnect, or drains to a point, that it won't start the cbr's engine.
.
 

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While the ECU does learn, going WOT defaults to factory tuning for the most part (changes the duty cycle if it's rich or lean but does not change the fuel curve) There would be very little if any difference from a couple WOT pulls. I doubt it would be measurable.
 

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ECM nevers stops Learning.

While the ECU does learn, going WOT defaults to factory tuning
The only time the ECM go to Default Programing, is when the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) is turn on by a Fault that the ECM has detected. This is called the Back Up or Limp Home Mode.

for the most part (changes the duty cycle if it's rich or lean but does not change the fuel curve) There would be very little if any difference from a couple WOT pulls. I doubt it would be measurable.
Take your cbr and Aufitt or Redline cbr. All three cbr traveling at 50 mph in 6th gear. All 3 cbr's got to WOT at the same time. Aufitt and Redline cbr's will out perform your cbr until each cbr's engine reaches it maximum speed.

This is something that was taught to me by GM Engineers, while working on GM Fuel Injected engines for 25 years.

Just Some Information to Think About.
.
 

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true!
the ecu learn from the rider.
i was pushing the engine hard and then did race my father (also have cbr250 but ride it on the 5-7 rpm range most of the time) i weight 30KG more than him and i got to top speed faster.
the same ride my father pushed the engine hard again, and at the end of the day we tried to race again.
he was absolutely the winner!

so for sure the ecu learns!
 

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I did not believe it myself when I joined the forum, and thought an ecu took about a millisecond to respond to changes, mods, or even riding conditions.
Long story short-
Disconnected battery at 1000km (touched terminals together & switched ignition key on/off, after a couple hrs, not sure if this does anything but read it on here somewhere.) fitted slipon exhaust.. it had more power over 6000 rpm but a massive flatspot below 6000rpm, and also very flat above 9000 which dissappeared after a couple hundred very hard k's, I then loved the motor ever since.

3000km later I removed the battery to tinker around with a few bits ready for an event,
went for a shake down run on the road and it was sluggish as hell again till 6000and flat up top. went to the track and was having to drop a gear to 3rd on 2 corners that are normally 4th gear and you can let it labour out of them from 6000.

Bike took half the day to come good, got home put the road gear on and she flies.

So the Jury is out on this as could be other factors like burning carbon off etc but for me it sure feels better after a good caning for a few hours after disconnecting battery.
(and sticking to the same fuel grade, and fuel station as well.)

The ppl who drive like Miss daisy and stall their bikes heaps should give this a try.
 

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If you don't teach the computer, Who Will. Even with todays Vehicles, as advanced as they are. The computer is programmed with the BASIC Operations. It up to the OWNER, to teach the Computer your own unique Operating Style. It will continue to learn, until the ECM is reset, or the battery is disconnect, or drains to a point, that it won't start the cbr's engine.
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Your experience is with auto systems.

I wouldn't assume the CBRs is advanced enough to "learn" and make changes in the same way.

If that was true, each WOT dyno run would give you consistently higher readings as the system "learned" what you wanted.

Where's the Bazzaz guy? He should know for sure.



Jay
 

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The only time the ECM go to Default Programing, is when the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) is turn on by a Fault that the ECM has detected. This is called the Back Up or Limp Home Mode.



Take your cbr and Aufitt or Redline cbr. All three cbr traveling at 50 mph in 6th gear. All 3 cbr's got to WOT at the same time. Aufitt and Redline cbr's will out perform your cbr until each cbr's engine reaches it maximum speed.

This is something that was taught to me by GM Engineers, while working on GM Fuel Injected engines for 25 years.

Just Some Information to Think About.
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When you are at WOT the ECU cannot read the sensors fast enough therefore it defaults. It's just how it works.

Driving it normally for a while and then going to redline gradually is what the ECU needs to be able to learn.
 

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To clarify this issue, I corresponded with one of the editors of Motorcyclist Magazine who was able to get information directly from Honda America’s CBR250R Product Specialist. The specialist’s answer (with a few grammatical corrections in brackets):

“The ECU is not set up to "learn" from the rider's input. [It’s possible that] the blogger finally really revved the bike and found out how much more power there is near redline. [Or], over some miles, his engine has "broke" in and it really does have a bit more power, but not due to anything the ECU is doing.”

Also, from the Motorcyclist Magazine editor:

“the ECU on fuel-injected bikes is constantly monitoring various inputs (throttle position, engine rpm, gear position, intake temp, etc.) and adjusting fuel delivery and ignition timing within set parameters. It’s possible that the members on the forum are confusing the standard operations of an EFI bike’s ECU with that of a more flexible self-adjusting system like Bazzaz’s AFM.
 

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Basic Knowledge.

Your experience is with auto systems.

I wouldn't assume the CBRs is advanced enough to "learn" and make changes in the same way.

If that was true, each WOT dyno run would give you consistently higher readings as the system "learned" what you wanted.

Where's the Bazzaz guy? He should know for sure.

Jay
Some more information to Think About.

Basic knowledge of a fuel injection system covers all vehicles that are equipped with this type of fuel management system, reguardless of the manufacture.

Instead of thinking in terms of Hours, Minutes, and Seconds. You have to Start Thinking in terms of milli, micro, nano and pico Seconds. The cpu used in the ECM is only operating at half of it potential computing processing power.

The ECM's learning process uses an averaging response calculating process. The more it learns, the higher the average respone increases. Pulling 2 to 5 runs on a dyno will show very little difference in the dyno HP and Torque Response Charts. Now pull 100 to 200 runs on the dyno, if the rear tire last till 50 pulls. Then read the dyno HP and Torque Response Charts.

A dyno pull to tune an engine is great. But where in the real world are you going to use this engine, legally. On an enclosed Race Track, I hope. Over 95% of all of the motorcycles that are sold are in the hands of owners, that will never spend any time on a Race Track. Decision Time, how are you going to operate your cbr?????

With Fuel Injection, versus Carburators. Carburators work on Fluid Dynamics. Air and Fuel Flow. Pretty simple system, when all things work correctly.

With Fuel Injection, you have the additional electrical control circuits. A Simple System, when every thing works correctly. What do you do, when the Fuel Injection system has a problem?????

If you have a Honda OEM Service Manual. Read the Troubleshooting Procedures for any of the ECM Codes. Short and Sweet, straight to the Failed Component. If only it was this simple. When the Troubleshooting Procedures leads to an ECM to be Replaced. What is Honda's Recomnded Procedure? Replace with a Known Good ECM, then recheck for code reset. Shades of GM all over again. Visit the Honda Parts Department. Ask the Parts Technicians for a Known Good ECM. Remember the Expression on His/Her Face. Welcome to the 21st Century.
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How Fast is Fast?????

When you are at WOT the ECU cannot read the sensors fast enough therefore it defaults. It's just how it works.

Driving it normally for a while and then going to redline gradually is what the ECU needs to be able to learn.
Some more Information to Think About.

What is the Fatest Thing that a Human can Detect?????

Here is an example of Fast.

A 44 cal magnum revolver. A high speed camera (1000 fps) is set up 90 degrees to the revolving bullet cylinder. The hammer is cocked. Trigger is pulled. Before the hammer strickes the precussion cap. The cbr ECM is ready to start the engine.

Before the ECM is ready to start the cbr's engine.
It has gone thru POST.
Checked and verified each input, multi times.
Selected the correct operatings parameters for starting the engine.
Then spends a life time in (computer time) waiting on you to depress the starter button.
 

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OK so its purely psycological and put down to freeing up the engine with more mileage and hard use giving a mechanical advantage rather than any efi control.
My knowledge of fuel injection is nil except it works so well compared the dark ages.
*must remember not to read any more 'Reset ecu threads'
 

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Lots of Information on the World Wide Web.

To clarify this issue, I corresponded with one of the editors of Motorcyclist Magazine who was able to get information directly from Honda America’s CBR250R Product Specialist. The specialist’s answer (with a few grammatical corrections in brackets):

“The ECU is not set up to "learn" from the rider's input. [It’s possible that] the blogger finally really revved the bike and found out how much more power there is near redline. [Or], over some miles, his engine has "broke" in and it really does have a bit more power, but not due to anything the ECU is doing.”

Also, from the Motorcyclist Magazine editor:

“the ECU on fuel-injected bikes is constantly monitoring various inputs (throttle position, engine rpm, gear position, intake temp, etc.) and adjusting fuel delivery and ignition timing within set parameters. It’s possible that the members on the forum are confusing the standard operations of an EFI bike’s ECU with that of a more flexible self-adjusting system like Bazzaz’s AFM.
Somemore Information to Think About.

Fuel Injection on the cbr is no different than any other topic about any kind of motor vehicle. Lots of information, from many different sources. Lots of statement about any subject. Now this is the $64,000 question. Who has the correct Answer???

From my dealings with many different vehicle manufactures. The vehicle manufacture will supply certain information to the Public. Any additional information that is released by an individual employed by the manufacture, is subject to termination of employment, without Prior Approval from the Home Office. All vehicle manufactures are very protective of their proprietary information. Unless the person that is releasing the information, states that he/she has offical written conformation from the Home Office. I treat it with a grain of salt.

It's up to each Individual, to decide for themself, what information is the most correct.

Somethings you may want to ask the Technician that is working on your cbr.
Is the ECM equipped with a Limp Home Mode?
What is the Pulse Frequency of the Fuel Injector?
Does the Technician have a meter to check the Duty Cycle time of the fuel injector?
Has the Technician attended a Honda School for the cbr?
Will the cbr's engine operate with a battery voltage of 11.50 VDC?
Can the Technician demonstrate the Hand Held Scanner connected to your cbr and explain the different Function and data read out of each input and output that the ECM monitors and controls?

So What's the Deal. A saying from my Grand Father that Speaks Volumes.

Their are Things You Know, and Things You Think You Know, Don't ever get the Two Confused.

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It's up to each Individual, to decide for themself, what information is the most correct..
That's my #1 problem with forums summed up right there.

People on forums don't listen to legitimate sources, and instead put their trust in speculation from self-proclaimed experts who have astronomical posts because they practically live online. The quote from the Honda technician (NOT a wrench at a dealership, but somebody who is actually employed at Honda America) is the only legit answer this thread has seen. End of story as far as I'm concerned.
 
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