Honda CBR 250 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
(I still have not overcome the problem)
Previously On:
1.
I have already written to you here about the motorcycle I bought and received a low level of maintenance(LINK)
Automotive tire Vehicle Car Automotive design Motor vehicle

2. I also shared with you the condition of the old plug that I was replacing(LINK)
Probably Engine That Experienced Overheated:

Wood Artifact Metal Sweetness Baked goods

3. Then I came to deal with the hard starting problem, and it was found that the fuel pump and her relief pressure valve were both failure, and I replaced them both (LINK to that thread)
Handwriting Lipstick Font Cosmetics Office supplies

What have I done since then?
I noticed that in a cold start the RPM dial climbing slowly and the engine needed assistance from the throttle, then I replaced in order: The IACV, and then the SENSOR SET, and that did not help either.
Arm Leg Gesture Finger Thumb
Camera lens Reflex camera Automotive tire Machine Circuit component

When I replaced the IACV I saw that the surface of the valve was worn (the pictures below), which might interfere with the smooth movement of the valve, so I also replaced the THROTTLE BOY, and with the renewal momentum I have already ordered a new INJECTOR.

Automotive tire Rim Gas Auto part Nut
Automotive lighting Automotive tire Automotive design Purple Input device
Window Headgear Gas Electric blue Tints and shades
Camera lens Reflex camera Automotive tire Machine Circuit component
Camera accessory Cameras & optics Auto part Automotive lighting Machine

If I had known that in the end I had bought all the throttle components I could have saved money by buying the whole unit. It's 142USD for a complete throttle set (LINK to Super-Bikers), compared to purchasing each part individually at a total cost of about 180USD.
I still have not overcome the problem...But I'm on my way to...
I made a short videos that redefine the problem.
Problem: The battery voltage drops to the level that the engine shuts off. But even after recharging the battery the ignition is difficult. And it repeats itself, starts, the battery drains, the engine shuts down.

A one minute video I editing on the subject:
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Updated
Meanwhile, I checked the Regulator / Rectifier, the Honda's service manual Book does not leave data for reference. I checked with a diode meter and the results of the diode bridge seem to me normal (The 3 "black" terminals contacts the three coils of the stator. The (+) (-) terminals contacts the Battery).
And I also checked the Regulator / Rectifier Connector, and through it the three coils of the stator.
The two test came out normal.
Automotive tire Bumper Automotive design Gas Automotive exterior

At the connector I measure 8 values as shown in the following image:
Lighting Font Handwriting Event Bumper

At the Reg/Rec I measures 14 values as shown in the following image:
Motor vehicle Bumper Automotive tire Automotive exterior Gas
Electronic instrument Gas Font Audio equipment Musical instrument accessory


But I think the measurement of the coils does not reflect reality, because it is clear beyond any doubt that the battery is good and the charge is not normal (no charge).
The following video is describing the Regulator/Rectifier test:
to be continued soon ...
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
My problem that I described in the video attached above (LINK) has a problem that is not documented in Honda's service manual book.
  • The battery is normal (Static voltage above 12.3 volts, and voltage above 10 volts when start-up)
  • There is no current leakage (Leakage current below the maximum allowed 0.35mA, I measured 0.02mA)
  • The charge is normal (The charging voltage at 5000 rpm is between the battery voltage and the 15.5V, I measured 14.02V)
  • The coil resistors in the stator are normal (The resistance should be between 0.1 ohms, to 1.0 ohms, and I measured on all three coils 0.9 ohms)
  • BUT there's still something wrong, According to Honda's test instructions the default in this case is that the regulator / rectifier is FAILD. But then how is it possible that charging values are at the normal range (14.02 V)?
The voltage goes down until the motor shuts off as a result of the dropping voltage. When the engine is running. When the engine is working, and until it shuts off by itself due to the decrease in voltage, at these minutes the engine is working properly, the rising at RPM when twisting the throttel is normal, not warming up, everything is normal.

To be continued soon ...
P.S.
In Honda's book P.17-5 ther is a mistake. On pages 17-3, and 17-8 Write that:
The resistance of the stator coils should be between 0.1 ohms, to 1.0 ohms.
BUT at page 17-5 the following error appears??? I think(Yes=No, No=Yes):
Product Water Rectangle Font Sky
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Well, ALTERNATOR Dynamic Test (AC Volt Test) does not appear in Honda Service Manual either.
I realized that the reference needs to be 30 volts AC at idle x 3 coils.
It is clear that the gap between my phases is abnormal. 9.4 <10.9 <12.5 is gap of about 25%, and of course the lower values 12.5max Vs' 30V AC Is significantly lower.
My stator, the coils, require a replacement.
Below is the video I edit about the Dynamic Test:
To be continued soon ...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
Yes, overheating would cause all sorts of damage. High-temps will melt insulation on stator-coils, causing short-circuit between adjacent loops. Removes that loop from producing power and lowering overall output of stator.
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
overheating would cause all sorts of damage.
Yes. as jkv357 Said before on the same issue:
Based on the deposits on the plug, I would run a strong fuel system cleaner. If the plug has deposits - so does the piston and combustion chamber. That can cause problems like detonation because of increased compression and low quality (octane) fuel. (Quote LINK)
Since I replaced the plug I rode already 1500km. The engine worked nicely with the original plug, and now it works nicely with the new plug.
I have not yet injected a detergent such as BG-K44 into the fuel system, because the engine does not heat up, and there is no concrete problem related to the issue of deposits in the engine's combustion chamber.
Now it remains for me to check if the rotor:
  1. If the magneto, has lost his magnet properties due to the suspected overheat.
  2. And check that magneto has no cracked.
As these two can also explain why the static measurement on the coils came out normal and the dynamic measurement came out very low. From there I am not expected to discover any further faults related to the incident suspected as overheating.

I think after I replacing the coils, at least I hope so, I can declare that I have finished with line alignment treatment.
I bought a motorcycle at a cheap price, and intended to take care of it and get it in proper working condition, and the project took me a little longer than I expected.
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
How is your project progressing?

When I experienced the stalling issue with throttle input, I had disassembled the throttle body and sensors, cleaned individual parts and connections, ensured IACV was appropriately positioned/adjusted before installation, and reassembled the throttle body. That immediately fixed the problem for me, but it still takes 2-3 start attempts before it will idle on its own (without throttle input). I think it's interesting that you replaced the throttle body and sensors and still experience this problem. What I learned from my project is that what appeared to be a battery/electrical issue was actually a symptom of a mechanical issue.

With all of that being said, have you cleaned all of the electrical connectors with electrical contact cleaner? This is my last consideration because I had cleaned everything while the connectors were disconnected and accessible - I wonder if that had something to do with the issue, even if it was to some degree. Wouldn't it be nice if that was the fix to the problem :)
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
What I learned from my project is that what appeared to be a battery/electrical issue was actually a symptom of a mechanical issue.
Yes, I also recently consulted with great John from Prartzilla.com (I will update on this separately).
I have not yet dealt with another problem that is only a mechanical problem related to difficulty in starting: I have heavy deposit in the combustion chamber. In this context, it is good to recall what our friend jkv357 wrote(LINK) to the forum after he seeing the plug(LINK to PIC) I removed from my engine:
Based on the deposits on the plug, I would run a strong fuel system cleaner. If the plug has deposits - so does the piston and combustion chamber.
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
How is your project progressing?
The stator from AliExpress arrived, I arranged it in to the case (the attached picture), I consulted with great John from Partzilla(I update on this separately), and I now have to get organized on deep cleaning as suggested by our friend jkv357
Gas Machine Personal protective equipment Electrical wiring Auto part
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
These are the Questions and Answers I received from John.T
PARTZILLA.COM:
28 January
Q:
Hello John. My CBR250R 2013, 66,000km, Second-hand. My plug found dry and "coated" with white dots. What's the problem? A BG-44K fuel additive can help? And if so, in what ratio? Thank you very much.
A:"it tells me it's running extremely lean. And you need to richen it some... I would wonder if it has any type of air leak on the intake...check your boots..."
LINK TO THAT CHAT

February 4th
Q:
John, Could it be that a plug covered with white dots is the product of a clogged catalytic converter? And How about cleaning the deposits in combustion chamber using a fuel additive such as BG-44K?
A: "...catalytic converter making it run extremely lean? (No) I could see it making it run rich...so I think you may be dealing with a potential leak on the intake system somewhere..."
LINK TO THAT CHAT

It turns out in retrospect that I found the source of the leak without realizing what I was finding, and now after John's detailed explanation I understand that this was the main cause of the plug problem. Thank you John!!!
I found that one screw in the INSULATOR BAND 16217-KYJ-900 was worn and therefore loose ... I raised the nut a few millimeters with spacers to skip the worn area in the screw, as can be seen in the following pictures:
Font Rectangle Metal Jewellery Fashion accessory
Goggles Sunglasses Camera lens Eyewear Gas
Wheel Automotive tire Tire Motor vehicle Tread

P.S.The possibility that it was an overheating was raised here in the forum, and I did not ask John about that. Yes, it is possible that this too.
And yes, I will pass a BG-44K through the fuel system in high concentration into the fuel tank, to release at least some of the deposits that is not only on the plug I removed but in the entire combustion chamber.
John recommends the Yamaha spray(LINK)
The main thing is that now everything is back to normal😊
Thanks to forum friends for all the tips and help(y)
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The stator replacement was successful!(y)
A Chinese stator cost me 60USD free shipping. The stator came with incorrect wiring of the electrical wire that goes to the neutral sensor, and with inaccurate soldering of the pegs, as well as residual of soldering tin and dust. Not something that can not be fixed, and I fixed all the small defects. Good price, the component is working good, what have we asked for? For over a century copper has been coiled on metal cores to form coils, so why pay for an O.E.M 155USD not including shipping? On the other hand the O.E.M fans will not forgive me for the crime I committed.
Now in idle I am measuring 13.94VDC.
At 5000rpm I measure as before 14.02VDC Max
And these are the truth values of the AC voltage in the three phases at idle (~1500rpm) - The picture attached below (17ACV Same and stable for all three phases):
Gesture Happy Slope Font Rectangle
 
  • Like
Reactions: DannoXYZ and jkv357

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
Unfortunately, stators face hard life being run 100% by shunt-circuit RR. Common problem on VFR models too. The 5/6th gen needed regular stator replacement because there was insufficient oil-flow to outside case to cool it and overheating/burnt stators are common.
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Unfortunately, stators face hard life being run 100% by shunt-circuit RR. Common problem on VFR models too. The 5/6th gen needed regular stator replacement because there was insufficient oil-flow to outside case to cool it and overheating/burnt stators are common.
Hi. What it is to " run 100% by shunt-circuit RR"?(My old O.E.M Regulator/Rectifier working good)

overheating/burnt stators are common?
I guess my engine did go through a slight overheating event (Due to an event of drop in oil level), not something dramatic, but dramatic enough to cause the stator to fail at 66,000 Km
I found no signs on my coils indicating overheating and burning. The copper tint is uniform in all directions. See the picture below:
Automotive tire Product Automotive wheel system Rim Auto part

And this fact fits well with the static test that found to be normal.
Only The dynamic test (AC Volt test) reflected the problem.

P.S. If the coils heating it can result not only from low efficiency of the oil cooling system but also from overload of the electrical systems. For example: I inserted a powerful Phillips bulb, if it consumes more current maybe it is the one that overwhelm my stator that was already in the process of dying.
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
I also edited a video on this topic, but it does not replace a normal
Battery / Charging-System Troubleshooting Schema.
How would you define a "normal" troubleshooting schema?
Because in the original schema there are a lot of inaccuracies and tests that are missing.
The original troubleshooting scheme lacks all the really important dynamic tests.
After I finished preparing the revised schema I discovered that there is also really no point in checking the Reg/Rec ( Link to my Video) because it is not repairable.
I present to you the two troubleshooting schemas ( P. 17-5),
The Original Versus The One I Re-edited,
and I would love to get feedback:
Font Document Number Parallel
Rectangle Font Handwriting Line Parallel

 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
For example: I inserted a powerful Phillips bulb, if it consumes more current maybe it is the one that overwhelm my stator that was already in the process of dying.
Updating
I measured the current in the two "normal" and "reinforced" bulbs. The "reinforced" (+ 30%) definitely justifies the price 7.5USD, I do not commit for the percentages, I guarantee it gives a noticeable extra light.
The current measurement results are the same in both bulbs:
In low beam I measured - 3.8A
In high beam I measured - 4.15A

Then it happened, I burned the multimeter which is also not expensive, less expensive than the bulb, 3.74USD(Free shipping), and it's on the way home.
The rest of the details in the photo gallery:
Font Material property Nail Magenta Drink
Motor vehicle Automotive lighting Speedometer Automotive design Automotive tire
Speedometer Motor vehicle Gauge Font Automotive tire
Auto part Machine Rim Automotive lighting Machine tool
Electrical wiring Circuit component Computer hardware Audio equipment Cable
Gadget Electrical wiring Audio equipment Cable Font
Motor vehicle Automotive tire Vehicle Automotive exterior Red
Gauge Measuring instrument Font Audio equipment Gas
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaggy22

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
For those who follow, and for newcomers, here is a summary of my events: I have a problem of difficult in cold starting. Along the troubleshooting schemes I found faults in several assemblies, and I'm fixed them all: In the fuel pump I had pressure drop in static mode, and overpressure in dynamic mode, and it was fixed. In the "automatic choke", in the IACV, where I found a slight damage to the cylindrical surfaces and subsequently replaced the entire throttle body. There was a concern about incorrect reading of the (IAT) temperature sensor, and (MAP) air pressure sensor, so the whole sensors-set was replaced. Then the alternator collapsed, causing the battery to crash too, so I replaced both as well. Each repair contributed in it's way to improving when cold start. Now I starting easily every time and for the first time, provided I turn the throttle two degrees (approximately). When I'm starting like that the needle jumps to 4000 rpm, I hold this for about five seconds, and when I releases the throttle, the needle no longer falls below 1500 rpm but climbs to 2000 rpm and the rest of the process continues automatically as usual, and as usual after another minute or two the needle stabilizes at 1500 rpm. At riding itself, in the whole rpm range, I never had a problem.

In normal cold start, the rpm should starts from 2000. For me this is not happening. Even when my engine starts without throttle assistance it starts from 1500rpm, and then it depends on how cold is the weather: If It's very cold it drops below 1500rpm to a complete stop. If not very cold, then the needle is climbing slowly until 2000rpm. At normal cold start, the engine starts at 2000 rpm. Not my engine.
Not yet, in the end I will find the rabbit. Not yet.
...
 

·
Registered
Honda: INNOVA125i(2010); CBR250R(2013)
Joined
·
559 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The difficulty in diagnosis at this point probably stems from one fact, the secret of the black box, what is there inside the ECM? What is the manufacturer hiding from us? Why is the computer's decision scheme is a top secret? That is why I am in favor of reverse engineering inquiry methods:
To be continued...
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top