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To summarise:

If they knew a little of the little I know, then they'd know a little. But then little do they know, how little they'd know of the little I know.
lol. I know little and less the more I know.

Honda knows a little bit... smart fellas those Japanese Engineers.
We are but dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants.

No doubt they are great at what they do, but one should ask in what field are they proficient? We all know they are wonderful mechanical engineers, but are they also chemical engineers? What was the design life of the motor? 200,000 miles? That's in the ball park of how long I'd like it to last.

My point is that engineers don't and can't know every detail of everything they design. The oil in the manual is acceptable for their purposes which for all we know is to make it out of the warranty period.
 

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Honda knows a little bit... smart fellas those Japanese Engineers.
How about the Aussie parts/service guys?

I've been saying the entire time that 10W-30 is the best choice for 99% of the owners here (that operate within normal conditions).

You are in the 1% that is not in that category.

EDIT: Do we all see the irony here? What do the dealerships really know? Some Honda dealerships are filling with 10W-40 and saying it's fine, others are filling with conventional 10W-30 and saying it's fine. Some owners are going to 10W-40 for normal use because it's easier to find and cheaper. The one guy that really needs a higher quality/heavier oil isn't listening, and is following his dealer's uneducated recommendation. Oh well...must not matter...



Jay
 

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I see that mail order oil sample testing is actually very cheap. Around $25. So I can run the Motul 300V at 5W30 and send samples to dial in the oil change interval. Or, even change back to a 10W30 if it looks like the 5W may tend to cause any wear.
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Standard Analysis
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No! Not empirical evidence! Go with your gut. :D What an age we live in.

I am one of those who wouldn't mind doing a few tests to gather data for the discussion. I'd like to set up some standards. What do you think, once at a thousand miles so the oil is "settled in" and then at 3,000? I plan on going to around 6,000 before changing the oil, but with the test data might go further. I will be doing track days soon, so maybe we will see just how hard this bike is on an oil. Wonder if Aufitt would care to test his?
 

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I see that mail order oil sample testing is actually very cheap. Around $25. So I can run the Motul 300V at 5W30 and send samples to dial in the oil change interval. Or, even change back to a 10W30 if it looks like the 5W may tend to cause any wear.
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Standard Analysis
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No worries about running the synthetic 5W-30 Motul 300V Ester - it's the highest (Group V) quality cycle oil available. For normal riding it's a bit overkill, but because you are looking for maximum MPG it makes perfect sense.

5W won't cause wear - it will prevent it. Wear at start-up in any engine is significant, and a lighter synthetic oil will reduce wear at start-up - especially in lower temps. I always run a synthetic 0W oil in my cars during the winter months. Much safer at start-up around 0 F and better MPG too. I could run it year-round to get better MPG, but for summer I go to a much less expensive synthetic 5W.

If any oil is going to help you get better mileage and give you maximum protection from wear, it's an advanced Ester-based 5W-30 synthetic like 300V.


Jay
 

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No! Not empirical evidence! Go with your gut. :D What an age we live in.

I am one of those who wouldn't mind doing a few tests to gather data for the discussion. I'd like to set up some standards. What do you think, once at a thousand miles so the oil is "settled in" and then at 3,000? I plan on going to around 6,000 before changing the oil, but with the test data might go further. I will be doing track days soon, so maybe we will see just how hard this bike is on an oil. Wonder if Aufitt would care to test his?
Great idea, but surely this has been done on every BIKE/CAR/TRUCK forum somewhere in the world?

^EDITED ; just googled a minefield.. definately wont bother testing, its as bad as the old Ford vs Holden discussions, for every 'statistic' there is another conflicting one.

Use whatever hasnt failed you in the past, I will leave this discussion for the more technical minded... it was discussed 20 yrs ago and in 20 yrs the same discussion will be going on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
The only reason to run a heavier oil than the standard recommendation is if you are operating the engine at a higher oil temp than 212 degrees... unless you are consistently running the oil temp (not water temp) above 212 degrees. That's probably only optainable on the race track (constant high RPMs) on a hot day - not during normal use.
Say what? :confused: 212 degrees F and higher is easily obtainable on any normal ride, even in water-cooled bikes. I see over 220 degrees F regularly on freeway rides. In fact, you'd better run those temps regularly, or else you won't be vaporizing the moisture condensate which accumulates in the oil from short rides. Short rides and sub-212 degree F oil temps are the reason why moisture accumulates in the crankcase and wreaks all sorts of havoc on clutch plates, gears, bearings, etc. I bought a ultr-low mile bike once from someone who said he started it every couple months for years for a short ride. The inside of the engine when I disassembled it was pure milkshake sludge, pitted metal parts, etc. When I went to remove the brand-new looking muffler, it crumbled off in my hand from rusting inside out, because all the water condensate formed from his short "warm-up" and short rides never fully vaporized, and collected at the bottom of the muffler.
 

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Say what? :confused: 212 degrees F and higher is easily obtainable on any normal ride, even in water-cooled bikes. (SNIP)
212 oil temp, not water temp. How do you know your oil temp? Oil temps will lag way behind your water temps in normal conditions. Heat and air movement inside the cranckcase will evaporate moisture below 212F - but it takes time.

The high rating (30, 40, etc) of an oil is set at 212F. Above that its viscosity will begin to drop. If you consistently operate at higher than 212F oil temps you should increase the weight of the oil (from the "normal" weight) to regain oil pressure that is lost because of the loss of viscosity.

Short rides and sub-212 degree F oil temps are the reason why moisture accumulates in the crankcase and wreaks all sorts of havoc on clutch plates, gears, bearings, etc. I bought a ultr-low mile bike once from someone who said he started it every couple months for years for a short ride. The inside of the engine when I disassembled it was pure milkshake sludge, pitted metal parts, etc. When I went to remove the brand-new looking muffler, it crumbled off in my hand from rusting inside out, because all the water condensate formed from his short "warm-up" and short rides never fully vaporized, and collected at the bottom of the muffler.
Exactly - terrible thing to do. "Warm-ups" during storage are only adding moisture and acids to the oil, and not letting them burn-off. For storage it's best to use (fresh) synthetic oil, run for no more than 10-15 seconds after changing (to circulate the fresh oil), then not start the engine again unless you will be running it for a significant amount of time. The coating of fresh synthetic oil will protect the metal parts from corrosion during storage.


Jay
 

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Liquids be compressed?????

The high rating (30, 40, etc) of an oil is set at 212F. Above that its viscosity will begin to drop. If you consistently operate at higher than 212F oil temps you should increase the weight of the oil (from the "normal" weight) to regain oil pressure that is lost because of the loss of viscosity.

Jay
The oil pump is a positive displacement unit. Being oil is a liquid, it can't be compressed. If the weight of the oil changes to the upper number (30,40). This is still higher than the Low number (5, 10). If the oil pressure was ok at the lower number, when the oil is hot and at the higher number. Where is the loss of oil pressure. Could you explain the (red) high text above.

Would be very much Appreciated.
 

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As the temp increases the viscosity decreases (graph). As the viscosity decreases the flow increases. As the flow increases the pressure decreases.




Look at the numbers at the bottom of the graph. At 100C a 30 grade oil is at (a rating of) 10. At the same temp a 40 grade is at (a rating of) 16. Look at the trend to see how the viscosity is dropping as the temps are increasing.


Jay
 

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No doubt they are great at what they do, but one should ask in what field are they proficient? We all know they are wonderful mechanical engineers, but are they also chemical engineers? What was the design life of the motor? 200,000 miles? That's in the ball park of how long I'd like it to last.

My point is that engineers don't and can't know every detail of everything they design. The oil in the manual is acceptable for their purposes which for all we know is to make it out of the warranty period.

Honda is the largest maker of internal combustion engines in the world. Their engines are renowned for their reliability and durability. I'll follow their recommendation for oil.
 

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lol. My point is that engineers don't and can't know every detail of everything they design.
That's funny!! Have you ever done any design work?

You don't think Honda, and every manufacturer, have lubrication engineers as well as the powerplant engineers on their staff?

Do you think when they build a MotoGP bike, F1 or Indy car, or even a lawn mower they go to a motorcycle forum to see which oil they should use.
 

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Holy crap has this thread strayed from the original question.

The Honda dealer should be offering you what Honda specs for the bike. 10W40 isn't going to hurt your engine. The higher viscosity will increase friction resulting in slightly lower fuel economy/higher emissions. (I'll give the dealer credit if they used Honda 10w40 and not some no-name oil they got for the lowest price they could find.)
 

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Apples to Apples OR Apples to Oranges.

As the temp increases the viscosity decreases (graph). As the viscosity decreases the flow increases. As the flow increases the pressure decreases.




Look at the numbers at the bottom of the graph. At 100C a 30 grade oil is at 10. At the same temp a 40 grade is at 16. Look at the trend to see how the viscosity is dropping as the temps are increasing.


Jay
Very Impressive Chart. At first glance. I have 20W-50 oil in my Motorcycle's. When I read the Chart, at 0 deg C, (32 deg F),the oil in my engines has a viscosity of 2,865. My wife's vehicle engine is filled with 10W-30. At the same temperature, the oil has a viscosity of 762.

Their is something amiss here. Oh, now I see. Somebody change from SAE to cSt. To make the Chart understandable, keep all of the Information in the same Units.

Without an explanation on how to read this Chart. Think how confusion it is to the Forum Members and visiting Guest.

I found this Chart at the following Link :
Oil Viscosity Explained
.
 

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That's funny!! Have you ever done any design work?

You don't think Honda, and every manufacturer, have lubrication engineers as well as the powerplant engineers on their staff?

Do you think when they build a MotoGP bike, F1 or Indy car, or even a lawn mower they go to a motorcycle forum to see which oil they should use.
I'm a newly graduated civil engineer so my answer to your design work question is kind of. I have some minor experience in structural and civil design. Engineering is all about maximizing performance for minimum price.

I don't think Honda has "lubrication" engineers on staff. I don't imagine they are paying some engineer $80,000 a year to say "yup we want lubricant that meets the same old standards, but not better." If they were making their own it would probably fair a lot better in standard tests.

All I know is they didn't specify the best oil available, they specified one that meets a certain standard. They get their "Honda quality" paper oil filters from the lowest bidder. I bet their GP bikes don't have those on them.

When they build their race equipment they probably get the best oil possible for the purpose. I imagine it is some 0W variety for maximum power. I doubt they consult the forums, but that doesn't mean we don't have good knowledge here.
 

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Very Impressive Chart. At first glance. I have 20W-50 oil in my Motorcycle's. When I read the Chart, at 0 deg C, (32 deg F),the oil in my engines has a viscosity of 2,865. My wife's vehicle engine is filled with 10W-30. At the same temperature, the oil has a viscosity of 762.

Their is something amiss here. Oh, now I see. Somebody change from SAE to cSt. To make the Chart understandable, keep all of the Information in the same Units.

Without an explanation on how to read this Chart. Think how confusion it is to the Forum Members and visiting Guest.

I found this Chart at the following Link :
Oil Viscosity Explained
.
Chill bro, nobody changed units on you. cSt, centistokes, is what viscosity of oil is measured in and they were showing you how different SAE graded oils viscosity changed at different temperatures. It's up to you to figure out which ones are similar at different temperatures if you want. The whole point is to show the trend that as temperature increases, viscosity decreases.
 

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The oil pump is a positive displacement unit. Being oil is a liquid, it can't be compressed. If the weight of the oil changes to the upper number (30,40). This is still higher than the Low number (5, 10). If the oil pressure was ok at the lower number, when the oil is hot and at the higher number. Where is the loss of oil pressure. Could you explain the (red) high text above.

Would be very much Appreciated.
I may not understand your question completely, but the viscosity of the oil never changes as it heats. It doesn't hit 100 degrees and become 40W. It will have a gradually reduced viscosity as it heats up. To fight the reduction in viscosity they put in modifiers that expand, unravel or something at higher temperatures that offer more resistance to flow. This simply counter acts some of the viscosity reduction so it behaves like a higher viscosity oil at higher temperatures.
 

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I'm a newly graduated civil engineer so my answer to your design work question is kind of. I have some minor experience in structural and civil design. Engineering is all about maximizing performance for minimum price.

I don't think Honda has "lubrication" engineers on staff. I don't imagine they are paying some engineer $80,000 a year to say "yup we want lubricant that meets the same old standards, but not better." If they were making their own it would probably fair a lot better in standard tests.

All I know is they didn't specify the best oil available, they specified one that meets a certain standard. They get their "Honda quality" paper oil filters from the lowest bidder. I bet their GP bikes don't have those on them.

When they build their race equipment they probably get the best oil possible for the purpose. I imagine it is some 0W variety for maximum power. I doubt they consult the forums, but that doesn't mean we don't have good knowledge here.
Civil engineering is a long way from mechanical engineering involving engine design so I'll let your comments speak for themselves. Oh, I've worked for companies with lubricating engineers, I'm surprised you know Honda doesn't have any or even of the need to have them on staff.
 

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Civil engineering is a long way from mechanical engineering involving engine design so I'll let your comments speak for themselves. Oh, I've worked for companies with lubricating engineers, I'm surprised you know Honda doesn't have any or even of the need to have them on staff.
New graduates know heaps of stuff, Feliz. Old chappies, like you and me, have to bow down in awe.
 

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Honda knows nothing about motorcycles/ Engines/Engineering/product development didnt ya know?
 
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