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That's true, but I think you're confusing fearlessness with recklessness. There's a huge difference between the two. You can be fearless without putting others in danger. Recklessness is just that. Reckless without any regard to anything around you.

You can be as confident as the sky is blue. But if you freeze or panic because you're afraid of death after a car just popped up out of no where. It won't end well for you.
I'm not confusing anything. Perhaps you may be confused. I was referring to a "healthy fear" of death. The awareness of ones mortality. I also feel that as mature riders it is wise NOT to be fearless either. Any rider with a measure of maturity and enough road experience will admit that they are not fearless "without fear". Mature riders will admit that every time they hop on their bike they know the unforeseen can happen. We all shd have a little bit of fear, and the awareness that we are not invincible whenever we ride our bikes. This prevents us from becoming cocky or overconfident.

If a rider freezes or panics, my conclusion wld not be because of a fear of death. I conclude the rider is undertrained, has no MSF courses that taught a solid skill set readying the rider for possible emergencies.
 

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most people dont know what real fear is..
people say 'im frightened of this or that'
which could be of missing a tv show etc..

being afraid can and does extend into
life-altering phobias, way beyond reality..

within reflex moments before impact
mind is aware as reflex happens..
its not or need not be fear based..
fear of smashing is of course, natural..
this is part stimulus for really learning
how to ride and control a motorcycle..

in the moment however it is whatever
reflex is available, which will be the trained
reflex, as in braking skill etc, if available,
that will happen..

simply having no fear is no guarantee
of anything in terms of impact avoidance..

someone could be genuinely fearless
yet without real skill, which would result in
whatever reflex they had, happening
in response..

if all they had was 'grabbing' which we have
from babyhood, and use thru life in all sorts
of actions, then grabbing would happen..
- ie grabbing the brake lever -

there is simply no alternative to
well structured rational learning
and training and practice of,
real riding skills, including
braking..
 

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I'm not confusing anything. Perhaps you may be confused. I was referring to a "healthy fear" of death. The awareness of ones mortality. I also feel that as mature riders it is wise NOT to be fearless either. Any rider with a measure of maturity and enough road experience will admit that they are not fearless "without fear". Mature riders will admit that every time they hop on their bike they know the unforeseen can happen. We all shd have a little bit of fear, and the awareness that we are not invincible whenever we ride our bikes. This prevents us from becoming cocky or overconfident.

If a rider freezes or panics, my conclusion wld not be because of a fear of death. I conclude the rider is undertrained, has no MSF courses that taught a solid skill set readying the rider for possible emergencies.
You're not describing fearlessness, you're describing recklessness. Being without fear doesn't mean you're throwing everything else out of the window. It means you're not afraid of death in the event you think it's that time.

No amount of training is going to prepare you for the actual real life moment. You can sit there and claim that your "training" renders you incapable of eating pavement, because you're 100% confident in the skills you were taught and NEVER actually had to use, and I'd think you're a blatant liar, until proven otherwise.

People are naive to think taking some random MSF course is going to auto-save your life. It may very well teach you skills that are useful and could potentially be life saving. But there's no way on earth, that you know as a 100% fact, that you'll be able to use said skills when the moment actually calls for them. Chalk it up to bad teachers, pseudo classes or anything else. I choose to see it as a being afraid of death. The textbook definition of fear, not what ever modified version you tell yourself.

Being afraid in the moment will potentially cloud your judgement, this is a scientific fact. Resulting in all that "training" to be tossed completely out the window. I've seen it happen first hand. Decades of on job experience and training tossed out the window because the guy was afraid of those pipes hurdling towards him.
 

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This is the last response you will get from me Susp. For over 18 years I have worked as a critical care paramedic. I receive regular training several times a year; advanced Cardiac Life Support, Advanced Trauma Life Support, Paediatric Advanced Life Support, extrication, 12lead ECG interpretation, advanced emergency vehicle driving training to name only a few courses I take to remain current on new up-to-date information and skills. (Not learned on YouTube by Psycho-Cruza)

I will tell you that there have been calls where I cld of shat my pants because there is nothing more frightening than 7 teenagers jammed into one car, then rolled it, and now having to extricate them and try like hell to help them. My TRAINING kicks in and I get to work. I'm am not too proud to say that I was scared......not frozen as you alluded to in an earlier post....but, it seems you are full of priceless jewels of MC info and eager to argue that onto new unsuspecting new riders (count yourself amongst them).

I suspect your either young, young and arrogant, or Cycle Cruza gracing our forum under a new IP address. Either way, I will not argue or appear to argue this point further.

Cheers
 

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People are naive to think taking some random MSF course is going to auto-save your life.
It's not an automatic life saver. There is no such thing, but it increases your chance of survival.
In Germany we have mandatory training before we can get our licenses (regardless of vehicle type). Motorcycle license training includes four 90 minutes theory classes for bikes and 6 theory classes for cars as a refresher (if you already have a car license if not you can go through all of the fourteen 60min. lessons for that too). After that you get one on one training with an instructor who will follow you in a car or on a bike giving you instructions through a radio set while you're riding. 3 hours Autobahn (no speed limit on some parts), 3 hours at night, three hours on highways (speed limit 100km/h ~62 mph) and however many hours it takes for you to be able to do the so called "basic riding tasks" test which consists of several slaloms at different speeds and different gaps between the cones, emergency stopping, slow speed maneuvering (both slalom and straight line riding at walking speed), obstacle evasion with and without braking and some more. After that you take the practical test which will include some of those tasks. So what does that mean for the average road user:

In the US about 5 times more riders die per 100.000 registered motorcycles than here in Germany.*

So the last two paragraphs of your post have been proven wrong. Training is no guarantee to master a situation but it obviously prepares one better to deal with them. You won't get surprised by how your bike will react in different situations and muscle memory has build up to fine tune your steering inputs because you've done it dozens of times before. Of course you'll still need to practice that every now and then on your own to keep your skills sharp.

But to stay fair we also have helmet laws which account for a higher survival rate too so the gap isn't all just training but even if it was 50% closer that's still a lot of lives saved through training.


*Calculated that myself with data from the net so it might not be dead accurate. We've got roughly 4.000.000 registered bikes here and had 568 fatalities in 2013 = ~ 14,2 fatalities per 100.000 bikes, in the US 72,34 people got killed per 100.000 registered bikes in 2006.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety
 

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It's not an automatic life saver. There is no such thing, but it increases your chance of survival.
In Germany we have mandatory training before we can get our licenses (regardless of vehicle type). Motorcycle license training includes four 90 minutes theory classes for bikes and 6 theory classes for cars as a refresher (if you already have a car license if not you can go through all of the fourteen 60min. lessons for that too). After that you get one on one training with an instructor who will follow you in a car or on a bike giving you instructions through a radio set while you're riding. 3 hours Autobahn (no speed limit on some parts), 3 hours at night, three hours on highways (speed limit 100km/h ~62 mph) and however many hours it takes for you to be able to do the so called "basic riding tasks" test which consists of several slaloms at different speeds and different gaps between the cones, emergency stopping, slow speed maneuvering (both slalom and straight line riding at walking speed), obstacle evasion with and without braking and some more. After that you take the practical test which will include some of those tasks. So what does that mean for the average road user:

In the US about 5 times more riders die per 100.000 registered motorcycles than here in Germany.*

So the last two paragraphs of your post have been proven wrong. Training is no guarantee to master a situation but it obviously prepares one better to deal with them. You won't get surprised by how your bike will react in different situations and muscle memory has build up to fine tune your steering inputs because you've done it dozens of times before. Of course you'll still need to practice that every now and then on your own to keep your skills sharp.

But to stay fair we also have helmet laws which account for a higher survival rate too so the gap isn't all just training but even if it was 50% closer that's still a lot of lives saved through training.


*Calculated that myself with data from the net so it might not be dead accurate. We've got roughly 4.000.000 registered bikes here and had 568 fatalities in 2013 = ~ 14,2 fatalities per 100.000 bikes, in the US 72,34 people got killed per 100.000 registered bikes in 2006.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_safety

So what I'm getting is that they practice high speeds. Something that isn't done here from what I've been told, MSF course or otherwise. They spend majority of their time doing book work and the other minimal time doing low-mid speed maneuvers. I assume because Germany has a street that doesn't have a speed limit they see it prudent to provide a class that covers handling those speeds.

Here in the states the highest speed limit on a street I've seen was 70, and it was a back road straight away that went on for about 10 miles or so. In the city you'll rarely see a street with a limit posted above 60. So I see why those numbers would be vastly different. The US doesn't provide training for high speeds because people shouldn't be legally going that fast anyway. But people do, and since they weren't trained for it, or didn't have the option in this case. It ends badly for them.

People die, it's a fact of life, the only thing I really care about is rather or not I enjoyed the time that was had. Which takes precedents over rather or not I'll die doing it. Which is my point, you should be more concerned with enjoying life, rather then debating rather or not your next action will get you killed.
 

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novice courses are for novice riders..
there are various rider training and
advanced rider training courses..

best to start at the start..
then perhaps go for more
advanced rider training..

first foundations,
then the brick wall..
 

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Here in the states the highest speed limit on a street I've seen was 70, and it was a back road straight away that went on for about 10 miles or so. In the city you'll rarely see a street with a limit posted above 60. So I see why those numbers would be vastly different. The US doesn't provide training for high speeds because people shouldn't be legally going that fast anyway. But people do, and since they weren't trained for it, or didn't have the option in this case. It ends badly for them.
Drive to Texas, mate!

German 'Autobahn', it was always nice. Crossing Germany from the very north to the southsouthwest, on the ZX11, 280kph was always a challenge. All this slow driving cars around. Many of them blocking the left lane for km's. Or trucks, overtaking with 90, some other truck on 88 :eek:
Nice thing, most upper model, beamers, mercs or porsch, moved over relatively quickly, as soon they saw, the bike still can accelerate.
I miss that, sometimes. There was a time, we went onto German Autobahn, early morning, sundays. Just to burn a fuel load as quick, as possible. Now I feel old, right now! :eek:


 

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Drive to Texas, mate!

German 'Autobahn', it was always nice. Crossing Germany from the very north to the southsouthwest, on the ZX11, 280kph was always a challenge. All this slow driving cars around. Many of them blocking the left lane for km's. Or trucks, overtaking with 90, some other truck on 88 :eek:
Nice thing, most upper model, beamers, mercs or porsch, moved over relatively quickly, as soon they saw, the bike still can accelerate.
I miss that, sometimes. There was a time, we went onto German Autobahn, early morning, sundays. Just to burn a fuel load as quick, as possible. Now I feel old, right now! :eek:
Hahahah. It would be Texas that has the highest speeds in the country. Though it is also the largest. I'm not really fond of speeding personally. I can't say I haven't done it though. If I do want to, I ride out into the country where there's literally no traffic. Even then I don't attempt to push my little cbr over 80mph. When just cruising around I keep it around 60. I get passed a lot, but meh. I still enjoy it. You don't have to go fast in order to enjoy riding.
 

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imagine you couldnt,, ride, at all [for say, 6mtns]

then, even a ride to the shops would be 'a ride'..
even a low speed basic riding course would
still be - riding your motorcycle..

even highly skilled motogp etc riders
continue to improve and develop their
riding skills and abilities..

an open mind to learning,
and to riding, is a valuable
gift, for those who can see..
 

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I like it when the legacy members of the forum say what should be said for me to the newbs. Saves my Memorial Day weekend grill-singed fingers from typing. :)
 

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How does one keep the inside of the helmet from getting smoked up when riding and smoking? Gotta keep the visor down, otherwise that cancer stick just flies right out of your mouth and into somebody's car and lights it on fire. Now somebody else is having a bad day. Another reason for cagers to wage war on us. I jest.. this topic was getting waaay too heavy. I did not even finish the whole thread. I had to lighten it up. I don't smoke, just had to have fun with this for a minute.

Brady, nice video. The intent is there and appreciated. Keep the videos coming. =)
 

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even highly skilled motogp etc riders
continue to improve and develop their
riding skills and abilities..

an open mind to learning,
and to riding, is a valuable
gift, for those who can see..
Supicioso may have had bad experiences in school.

His favorite album must be The Wall, by Pink Floyd.

 

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back to original idea of 'fear of death' ie, dying,
as motivation for enhanced safety or whatever..

fear is fear.. which has certain predictable physical
and neuro-chemical effects/results which, kill skill..
someone in the grip of fear, just walking along,
is likely to trip over, walk into something,
in front of a car, etc..

their fear could be based on anything..
their heart rate, breathe rate, metabolism
pupil dilation, coordinated muscle movements,
[etc] will be negatively effected by fear..

they could be in fear of aliens, the devil getting them,
or any manner of fear generated thru their life
and living of it.. its still, fear..
there will be distraction and ineffeciency
in basically everything..

to promote fear as some sort of solution
in promotion of rider safety, shows ignorance
of what fear is, and what fear actually does..

rather than enabling, fear is crippling..

as a traditional martial artist i know that fear
is one important element in self defense..
ie, it is important to not, fall into fear
when in danger or being attacked..

a well trained martial artist [compare motorcyclist]
while obviously well aware of the dangers of
that blade or baseball bat or whatever,,
does not give in to fear based responses,
rather, lives the reality, according to her
level of training and preparation
for the real thing, should it happen..

ltr used the example of emergency service responses
including as based on serious training and preparation
which would also include full awareness of reality,
yet without becoming incapable due to opening
the mind to fear..

intellectual understanding of risk, is not fear..
it is intellectual understanding of risk..
training for emergency responses, is not fear..
it is training for predictable realities..

heightened awareness, due to training etc,
and as may be experienced in a near miss
or suchlike, is not fear, and does not need
fear to be a natural part of riding [or whatever]..

in the microseconds of a real emergency response
there is no time for fear to play a part,
other then to reduce reaction time if
fear is present before the fact..

rational understanding and awareness are good,
training - including ongoing personal practice -
is very good.. it is the foundation for/or
ongoing skills development thus
effective responses..

anyone subject to fear is best advised
to take whatever steps are necessary
to unshackle themselves from fear..
which while another subject,
is the only real option...
 

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Yup, I got to get myself back into a class. It has been way too long, and there are so many more cars out there, filled with older (decreased senses and reactions), and younger (inexperienced) drivers. Oh, and then there are the phone-watchers...

I have been off the bike for over 18 months, so I could really use it.

I am lucky, my local Honda dealer has classes all Spring/Summer long, every week. It shouldn't be hard to get into one.
 
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