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529 Posts
I agree completely. Well...except for the 15,000 rpm redline of the CBR250RR. I believe the redline was closer to 18,500 or 19,000 rpm.
Mike
Powerbands
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Mike
I had heard about the 19,000 rpm bit, but the specs that I checked said 15,000. Either way a streetbike that makes its' peak torque (13 lb-ft) around 12,000 is really kind of a waste of material and engineering time. Especially when a good SuperMoto would kick its' ass all over the street for less money.
haha, you are tops kvr...
firstly, it was not a post about the deficiencies, it was a post about my opinion of the bike as compared to its ancestors. usually evolution goes forwards but in this case it appears to have taken a couple of bounds to the rear and i called it how i saw it.
i am not assuming anything about the OP. if you have been around bikes for as long as you claim you seem to portray, you would be fully aware of the "4T powerband" gag.
also, your knowledge of the superior CBR250 models is poor and innacurate. the MC14-E in its ultimate form created max power @ 15000 rpm with a redline of 19k rpm which was perfect for the bike as by the time you got to approximately 17/18k rpm, your upshift would drop you right before the peak power. also the peak torque was 18.5 foot pounds @ 12k rpm. this was far from a waste of engineering and material, the whole motor weighs less than 50kg WET and are goddammned bulletproof.
someone from this forum tried to have a go at .com by making fun of our bikes with 400 thousand km on the clock. i have seen some of these motors treated like absolute **** and still going strong after 2 known laps of the odometer. i would like to see the lifespan of one of these litle things knowing that they are all built in thailand as cheap as possible rather than the CBR250RRs which were all built in japan at a premium and sold at $10,000 dollars off the showroom floor. compared to this sold at half the price, though inflation would probably show it to be more like a third or less...
as for a good supermoto kicking its ass for less money? you seriously make me laugh that is just about the most absurd thing i have ever heard. OEM tards are shitboxes with barely enough power to do anything and a decent one is made out of an expensive short life motorcross bike with much money spent on the conversion.
again, if you had been around for when motards first started getting made out of dirtbikes, you would know things like this...
firstly, it was not a post about the deficiencies, it was a post about my opinion of the bike as compared to its ancestors. usually evolution goes forwards but in this case it appears to have taken a couple of bounds to the rear and i called it how i saw it.
i am not assuming anything about the OP. if you have been around bikes for as long as you claim you seem to portray, you would be fully aware of the "4T powerband" gag.
also, your knowledge of the superior CBR250 models is poor and innacurate. the MC14-E in its ultimate form created max power @ 15000 rpm with a redline of 19k rpm which was perfect for the bike as by the time you got to approximately 17/18k rpm, your upshift would drop you right before the peak power. also the peak torque was 18.5 foot pounds @ 12k rpm. this was far from a waste of engineering and material, the whole motor weighs less than 50kg WET and are goddammned bulletproof.
someone from this forum tried to have a go at .com by making fun of our bikes with 400 thousand km on the clock. i have seen some of these motors treated like absolute **** and still going strong after 2 known laps of the odometer. i would like to see the lifespan of one of these litle things knowing that they are all built in thailand as cheap as possible rather than the CBR250RRs which were all built in japan at a premium and sold at $10,000 dollars off the showroom floor. compared to this sold at half the price, though inflation would probably show it to be more like a third or less...
as for a good supermoto kicking its ass for less money? you seriously make me laugh that is just about the most absurd thing i have ever heard. OEM tards are shitboxes with barely enough power to do anything and a decent one is made out of an expensive short life motorcross bike with much money spent on the conversion.
again, if you had been around for when motards first started getting made out of dirtbikes, you would know things like this...
I'm really more interested in helping new riders sort through all the information so they can get a good start, develop good habits and not throw away their money on stuff that won't benefit them. But as far as your post goes, I originally never said anything about redline and my specs were correct. 45hp @15,000 rpm. I stand corrected on the torque. Yeah, that's great for a learner bike. My wife doesn't need paired Brembo Radial calipers on a set of FGRT 813 forks or Sato rearsets to learn how to ride and commute to work. That's the market. New riders, small women, commuters who want an INEXPENSIVE bike that's easy to handle in the city and gets good mileage. People who want to sit up on a motorcycle and take in the sights. The 250R is not a devolution of the 250RR. It's a totally different concept. Like the CBR600RR and the CBR600F. Two different bikes, two different concepts, engines, chassis. Nobody cares about reground cams, higher compression pistons or Pankl titanium rods.
As far as bullet proof is concerned, let's have a little test. If you ever come over, we'll have a race. My wife and I, two up, on my R1200GS Adventure and you can ride your 250RR. We'll go from Los Angeles, CA to Boston, MA, 3300 or so miles. All the way across America. I can do it in ~56 hrs. with a good nights sleep in the middle. I'll even let you use my second GPS unit so you don't get lost going through Death Valley. Then we can ride to Alaska and take pictures of the glaciers.
And by the way, a KTM or Husky supermoto for $8-9,000 with stock suspension and fueling will absolutely wax a 250RR on the backroads of California's Sierra Nevada.
While you're at it, have a word with Corser. I've been waiting for him to put the S1000RR on the top step for two years now. Kudos to Stoner @ Catalyuna. Better him than Rossi.
As far as bullet proof is concerned, let's have a little test. If you ever come over, we'll have a race. My wife and I, two up, on my R1200GS Adventure and you can ride your 250RR. We'll go from Los Angeles, CA to Boston, MA, 3300 or so miles. All the way across America. I can do it in ~56 hrs. with a good nights sleep in the middle. I'll even let you use my second GPS unit so you don't get lost going through Death Valley. Then we can ride to Alaska and take pictures of the glaciers.
And by the way, a KTM or Husky supermoto for $8-9,000 with stock suspension and fueling will absolutely wax a 250RR on the backroads of California's Sierra Nevada.
While you're at it, have a word with Corser. I've been waiting for him to put the S1000RR on the top step for two years now. Kudos to Stoner @ Catalyuna. Better him than Rossi.
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114 Posts
Come on mootavic, is this the only reason your here? Someone said something about a different bike so you get on here to retaliate. There both 250's. The reality is that most people that buy either an old or new 250 buy them to learn on. And when looking at getting a CBR a new one is a great choice for the money.
These forums are supposed to be helpful especially for new riders, as the majority of 250 owners (new and old) are.
Geez, this is like Whack-A-Mole. But what can you expect of someone whose goal in life is to be thought of as a spark plug.
You don't know anything about bikes do you, Sparky? Either that or you have no imagination beyond the limited vocabulary on the KY dispenser in your sister's bedroom. The most obvious point is that the real motorcycling world is bigger than a tiny, narrowly focused race rep with a 13 liter tank that you can only really ride correctly for about 30 minutes. That is the point of the whole discussion of the 250R's design.
The second point is, that an unburdened BULLETPROOF (the key word here) 330 lb. 250RR should easily be able to hang with a fully loaded, 750 lb. adventure bike on knobbies with two passengers, 41 liters of fuel and the aerodynamics of a parachute on the durability, agility and velocity fronts. So let's test it. Run it for 22 hours straight at 90 mph in the rain and let's see how it does and how you feel on it. On the track for 30 min, yeah, it might be one sided, maybe. But outside of that mostly irrelevant, tiny window your $10,000 in 1991 doesn't look like such a great deal. I wanna see just how good it is at 12,000 feet in a whiteout snowstorm when your jets go lean and turn your high comp pistons to junk. The GSA? Better than Trigger. Follow me, I'll get us home. Oh, the 250RR isn't designed for that? Hmmm, again, isn't that the point of the discussion.
Third, I ride in the real world. My experience also includes a K1200S and an '06 1000RR. Your 18 lb-ft at 12,000rpm is about as practical as a book with letters next to your bed. Not everyone wants to spool up like a Dremel Tool when a stop sign pops up every hundred yards or so. The torque curve is king. Easy to ride wins the day. The GSA is just the best example. EVER. The new 250R is next.
no actually your bulletproof interpretation is reading between the lines. my statement was intended to mean "these bikes DO lap the odometer, sometimes twice, and still run great" whereas your concept of bulletproof seems to mean the bike can tour.
what??
thats a stupid comparison mate, thats like having a ploughing contest and saying "ill race your Mustang kid!" then claiming that your tractor is a better overall machine in all aspects than the car...
straw man argument is weaksauce...
re: redline comment, you got me then, i misread. my apologies on that one, i thought your comment was implying that the bike only wound out to 15k rpm. my bad...
lol @ your extensive experience with bikes. im not here to wave my e-penis around but ive ridden approximately a metric shitload of bikes, ancient [hooray nortons!!] old [GSXR 7/11 for the win/death] and new [plastic fantastic sports bikes] and the ugly K12 is certainly a formidable dual purpose touring pig but something you have to realise is that some people arent exactly after practical, or at least your interpretation of it...
i mean ****, you ride a thou blade [apparently] how practical is that on the road? can you take that up through the mountains, and ride it to 100% of its capability? if you say yes, then you are a liar. the old 250 was great in that respect, only having 45HP at peak allowed you to do silly things like snapping the throttle wide open as soon as you could get back on the gas. It's suspension also allowed you to come into corners carrying much more corner speed than your mates on big bikes and pass them on the outside. the same went for the track. i HATE riding the modern sports bikes on the road. i'm always waiting for the bastards to high/lowside me to death for giving it 1% too much throttle. you have to ride them sooooooooo carefully otherwise you will destroy them. on the track however, thats a different story. absolute weapons. so how's that for practicality? i quite enjoyed the ability to come into a corner in 2nd gear flat out, tuck in, shift all the way up to 5th before the next corner and still only be doing 100mph lol. you can use these little sewing machines to their limit and a little further with some balls...
also, i ride a CB1300F in the real world mate. its essentially a 5 speed car motor and 2 wheels held together with waterpipes. I have fun trying to make it go fast because it really doesnt want to. I dont like comfy bikes [its disconcerting] so i threw clipons on and some much heavier fork springs to make it a little less like a sofa...
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what??
thats a stupid comparison mate, thats like having a ploughing contest and saying "ill race your Mustang kid!" then claiming that your tractor is a better overall machine in all aspects than the car...
straw man argument is weaksauce...
re: redline comment, you got me then, i misread. my apologies on that one, i thought your comment was implying that the bike only wound out to 15k rpm. my bad...
lol @ your extensive experience with bikes. im not here to wave my e-penis around but ive ridden approximately a metric shitload of bikes, ancient [hooray nortons!!] old [GSXR 7/11 for the win/death] and new [plastic fantastic sports bikes] and the ugly K12 is certainly a formidable dual purpose touring pig but something you have to realise is that some people arent exactly after practical, or at least your interpretation of it...
i mean ****, you ride a thou blade [apparently] how practical is that on the road? can you take that up through the mountains, and ride it to 100% of its capability? if you say yes, then you are a liar. the old 250 was great in that respect, only having 45HP at peak allowed you to do silly things like snapping the throttle wide open as soon as you could get back on the gas. It's suspension also allowed you to come into corners carrying much more corner speed than your mates on big bikes and pass them on the outside. the same went for the track. i HATE riding the modern sports bikes on the road. i'm always waiting for the bastards to high/lowside me to death for giving it 1% too much throttle. you have to ride them sooooooooo carefully otherwise you will destroy them. on the track however, thats a different story. absolute weapons. so how's that for practicality? i quite enjoyed the ability to come into a corner in 2nd gear flat out, tuck in, shift all the way up to 5th before the next corner and still only be doing 100mph lol. you can use these little sewing machines to their limit and a little further with some balls...
also, i ride a CB1300F in the real world mate. its essentially a 5 speed car motor and 2 wheels held together with waterpipes. I have fun trying to make it go fast because it really doesnt want to. I dont like comfy bikes [its disconcerting] so i threw clipons on and some much heavier fork springs to make it a little less like a sofa...
My point is, in general, that the new 250R is designed as an inexpensive, practical bike for beginners and small riders and the design tradeoffs Honda made when they built it puts it in a different class than the 250RR. Would you put your kid on a CR500 as a learner bike? I'd hope not, you appear wiser than that. Your original post didn't seem to make this distinction and you proceeded to tell us that we don't know anything about motors.
Bulletproof is being able to run without having to dick around with it. The point was to run the RR for hours on end at the upper end of it's rev range in the real world against what is, ostensibly, the world standard for bulletproof bikes and see how it does. Loading up the GSA would just level it out. You would still likely have (slightly) both the power to weight and weight to contact patch advantages. Piston speeds would probably be close to each other. So the comparison with the GSA is not too far off from a component stress/ durability viewpoint. The practicality of the 250R is closer to the GSA than the 250RR.
I also don't feel the need to wave my "e-penis" (clever term) around the forum and really just included the other bikes as a reference point for my position on the character of the engine. I absolutely concur with you that the literbikes are a pain in the a$$ to ride in the mountains and no, I don't claim to be able to ride them even close to 100%, even on the track. I ride for fun so I don't play with people who who think every corner is Parabolica for exactly the same reasons as you. I don't want to have my ride interrupted by having to call and wait for an ambulance for some goofy squid who thinks because he's got a Rossi rep helmet and Dainese knickers that he's got Rossi level skills. That's also the reason most of us have gone to dual sport or Supermoto bikes for riding in the twisties, they're just more fun. The literbikes are great in traffic though for filtering and the instant on power makes them safer on our freeways. I mostly commute (35 min) on mine on the freeway to train the muscles for trackdays by holding myself up and squeezing the tank as hard as I can to keep weight off the bars. It's like riding Secretariat at full chat for a half hour straight.
The power characteristics you like on the RR are the same idea why I like the GSA and the 250R for my wife. It's harder to get into trouble. Cheers.
hooray!!
Level headed conversation finally...
Ok, of course i wouldnt throw my boys onto a CR500 hahaha, though if i had the video camera handy it would be a hilarious video for their 21st birthday lol. i understand the ideas behind the learner class but my opinion [and remember, i am saying it as only an opinion] is that they have made this bike deliberately worse than they could or should have...
mind you, if they HAD made it better then it would have been FAR more expensive. so i guess "possibly" cheaper in this circumstance is "better" but only in the respect of ease of acquisition. not performance...
bulletproof, i used to marshall for a trackday mob here in aus on my 250RR and i could run her every session of a whole day above 12k rpm through to redline all day in stock tune and trim. she certainly got hot, but never to the point of breaking down or boiling but i serviced her religiously. as long as you kept up with the normal maintenance they ran forever without any major work. the best part was not having a camchain to worry about...
I do disagree that the practicality statement only because i dont think the GSA is practical but i do see where you are coming from. different strokes for different folks and at least i now understand your viewpoint and know the reasoning behind your opinions and for that i thank you...
Level headed conversation finally...
Ok, of course i wouldnt throw my boys onto a CR500 hahaha, though if i had the video camera handy it would be a hilarious video for their 21st birthday lol. i understand the ideas behind the learner class but my opinion [and remember, i am saying it as only an opinion] is that they have made this bike deliberately worse than they could or should have...
mind you, if they HAD made it better then it would have been FAR more expensive. so i guess "possibly" cheaper in this circumstance is "better" but only in the respect of ease of acquisition. not performance...
bulletproof, i used to marshall for a trackday mob here in aus on my 250RR and i could run her every session of a whole day above 12k rpm through to redline all day in stock tune and trim. she certainly got hot, but never to the point of breaking down or boiling but i serviced her religiously. as long as you kept up with the normal maintenance they ran forever without any major work. the best part was not having a camchain to worry about...
I do disagree that the practicality statement only because i dont think the GSA is practical
but i do see where you are coming from. different strokes for different folks and at least i now understand your viewpoint and know the reasoning behind your opinions and for that i thank you...oh, and my comments regarding misinformation about motors were specifically targetted at kutter who was the one misinterpreting the honda press release...
i do admit i generalised but only because noone else picked up on that.
if you want to build a proper community out of this forum, you guys need to pick up on these things and knock them on the head fast before asshats like me catch them, because we will take the mickey wherever given the chance...
100% accurate information when it comes to the bike your site is named after should be the goal. while not achievable in the real world, it should still be the aim to strive for...
i do admit i generalised but only because noone else picked up on that.
if you want to build a proper community out of this forum, you guys need to pick up on these things and knock them on the head fast before asshats like me catch them, because we will take the mickey wherever given the chance...
100% accurate information when it comes to the bike your site is named after should be the goal. while not achievable in the real world, it should still be the aim to strive for...
hooray!!
Level headed conversation finally...
Ok, of course i wouldnt throw my boys onto a CR500 hahaha, though if i had the video camera handy it would be a hilarious video for their 21st birthday lol. i understand the ideas behind the learner class but my opinion [and remember, i am saying it as only an opinion] is that they have made this bike deliberately worse than they could or should have...
mind you, if they HAD made it better then it would have been FAR more expensive. so i guess "possibly" cheaper in this circumstance is "better" but only in the respect of ease of acquisition. not performance...
bulletproof, i used to marshall for a trackday mob here in aus on my 250RR and i could run her every session of a whole day above 12k rpm through to redline all day in stock tune and trim. she certainly got hot, but never to the point of breaking down or boiling but i serviced her religiously. as long as you kept up with the normal maintenance they ran forever without any major work. the best part was not having a camchain to worry about...
I do disagree that the practicality statement only because i dont think the GSA is practical
I'm glad you stuck around long enough to work through it all with me. I look forward to being able to discuss things with someone with your level of experience. I didn't read kutter's stuff. I too, value Honda's reliability and certainly place them as one of the pre-eminent engineering companies in the world though I do think lately they have slipped a bit into the hands of the chickens**t marketers and bean counters. Your 250RR was designed while Soichiro still had significant leverage and probably incorporated some of the stuff they learned when they built the NR750. Lucky guy.
I also want this thread to be a positive place for fans of the bike to get good info and share stories which is why I answer some obvious troll posts relatively pleasantly. But, if they resort to name calling and take shots at my wife then they're fair game. Luke has started a thread asking the mods to police it a little better so maybe that will help.
If you ever do put your boys on a CR500 as a learner bike (and a 21 year old young man is fair game) we have a show where you can win cash.
Now, about that Corser chap.... Cheers.21 - 33 of 33 Posts
