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Some helmet/accident statistics.
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Facts they might be but what is missing is ratios. Like how many bike/ cars where on the road. Of the fatal accidents what types of bikes, age of rider, how long did they have theory license, who as at fault. Statistics are great but only worth what the author wants you to know/ believe. I for one always ware a helmet and always will regardless of state laws.
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words words and lots of words, yet I couldn't get past the opening statements...
fatalities have doubled since X date.
Ok, how about motorcycle ownership? has it doubled too? If so, the point is moot. Has it tripled? Quadrupled? Bazillnuppled? Even more moot.
I've lost and nearly lost friends and family and acquaintances alike. The hardest for me to take was the death of my brother and sister-in-law (I actually gave up riding on the road a few years from that one.).
I'd rather ride and die than not ride and never live in the first place. Period.
fatalities have doubled since X date.
Ok, how about motorcycle ownership? has it doubled too? If so, the point is moot. Has it tripled? Quadrupled? Bazillnuppled? Even more moot.
I've lost and nearly lost friends and family and acquaintances alike. The hardest for me to take was the death of my brother and sister-in-law (I actually gave up riding on the road a few years from that one.).
I'd rather ride and die than not ride and never live in the first place. Period.
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I'm an information junkie, but learning to question the context and details behind data like that that is hodge-podged together to create a sensational story. Mark Twain said it best: "Lies, **** lies, and statistics." 
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^I agree. I have learned statistics are only valid "in the eye of the beholder". Especially when one makes a faux pas and quotes some on this forum lol There will always be someone who is ready to refute the arguement, which isn't a bad thing, just be prepared
In conclusion, wear the gear you want, are comfortable in, that obeys the laws where you live, and ride responsibly. Remember it just isn't you on the road, but others are impacted as well.
lol There will always be someone who is ready to refute the arguement, which isn't a bad thing, just be preparedIn conclusion, wear the gear you want, are comfortable in, that obeys the laws where you live, and ride responsibly. Remember it just isn't you on the road, but others are impacted as well.
I love this quote at the end:
"You cannot be in this battle and not be frustrated by the senselessness."
Yeah, the senselessness of the data. Again you have an article which just calls out overall motorcycle fatalities as if it means anything to anyone. Motorcycle fatalities have always had a direct relationship with motorcycle registrations, but of course that little number is left out, it might reveal something the article's author doesn't care to admit.
Finally looking at the numbers in the sourced article:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Total 2,243,000 +26,000 +1.2% 2,239,000 +22,000 +1.0%
Passenger Vehicles 1,990,000 +14,000 +0.7% 1,986,000 +10,000 +0.5%
Passenger Cars 1,258,000 +42,000 +3.5% 1,253,000 +37,000 +3.0%
Light Trucks 732,000 -27,000 -3.6% 733,000 -26,000 -3.4%
Large Trucks 19,000 +2,000 +12% 20,000 +3,000 +18%
Motorcycles 82,000 -8,000 -8.9% 82,000 -8,000 -8.9%
Pedestrians 70,000 +11,000 +19% 70,000 +11,000 +19%
Pedalcyclists 51,000 +1,000 +2.0% 52,000 +1,000 +2.0%
Other/Unknown 8,000 +1,000 – 8,000 +1,000 –
People are so obsessed with automobile fatality numbers, but as motorcyclists we have to remember those have nothing to do with us. What we need to care about are all collisions, because a minor fender bender might be no big deal to a car, but it is potentially fatal to us.
Again, the data shows that injuries were actually *UP* 3-4% for passenger cars even though overall traffic fatalities went down. If this has been going up 3-4% every year, it just shows the roads are getting more and more dangerous for us as motorcyclists even if automobile fatalities are going down.
The census data also shows while fatalities from motor vehicles are dropping, actual automobile crashes aren't, and in fact have been going up for a few years:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1103.pdf
Isn't there something we can do to make automobile driver's drive a little more safely without focusing so much on pigeon holing motorcyclists as being some kind of drain on society - which at the end of the day are a tiny fraction of vehicles on the road anyway? They talk about the big bad motorcyclists with their 4000 killed a year as being a drain on society, never mind the fact that passenger car injuries are going up by 40 grand year over year.
These articles have an agenda, and the agenda is certainly not to make motorcycling more safe for riders.
"You cannot be in this battle and not be frustrated by the senselessness."
Yeah, the senselessness of the data. Again you have an article which just calls out overall motorcycle fatalities as if it means anything to anyone. Motorcycle fatalities have always had a direct relationship with motorcycle registrations, but of course that little number is left out, it might reveal something the article's author doesn't care to admit.
Finally looking at the numbers in the sourced article:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Total 2,243,000 +26,000 +1.2% 2,239,000 +22,000 +1.0%
Passenger Vehicles 1,990,000 +14,000 +0.7% 1,986,000 +10,000 +0.5%
Passenger Cars 1,258,000 +42,000 +3.5% 1,253,000 +37,000 +3.0%
Light Trucks 732,000 -27,000 -3.6% 733,000 -26,000 -3.4%
Large Trucks 19,000 +2,000 +12% 20,000 +3,000 +18%
Motorcycles 82,000 -8,000 -8.9% 82,000 -8,000 -8.9%
Pedestrians 70,000 +11,000 +19% 70,000 +11,000 +19%
Pedalcyclists 51,000 +1,000 +2.0% 52,000 +1,000 +2.0%
Other/Unknown 8,000 +1,000 – 8,000 +1,000 –
People are so obsessed with automobile fatality numbers, but as motorcyclists we have to remember those have nothing to do with us. What we need to care about are all collisions, because a minor fender bender might be no big deal to a car, but it is potentially fatal to us.
Again, the data shows that injuries were actually *UP* 3-4% for passenger cars even though overall traffic fatalities went down. If this has been going up 3-4% every year, it just shows the roads are getting more and more dangerous for us as motorcyclists even if automobile fatalities are going down.
The census data also shows while fatalities from motor vehicles are dropping, actual automobile crashes aren't, and in fact have been going up for a few years:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1103.pdf
Isn't there something we can do to make automobile driver's drive a little more safely without focusing so much on pigeon holing motorcyclists as being some kind of drain on society - which at the end of the day are a tiny fraction of vehicles on the road anyway? They talk about the big bad motorcyclists with their 4000 killed a year as being a drain on society, never mind the fact that passenger car injuries are going up by 40 grand year over year.
These articles have an agenda, and the agenda is certainly not to make motorcycling more safe for riders.
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+The MRF reports, "The single biggest point to make with this story and all like it is this simple fact.
In 1997, there were 2,116 fatalities for 3,826,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.055% of the motorcyclists were killed.
In 2010, there were 4,502 fatalities for 8,368,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.053% of the motorcyclists were killed.
So we have more than doubled the motorcycle population. Fact. And we have actually reduced fatalities. Fact."
Learn more Fact or Fiction, here:
http://www.mrf.org/pdf/MRF_FactOrFiction2011.pdf
Ride on.
Roadkill
In 1997, there were 2,116 fatalities for 3,826,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.055% of the motorcyclists were killed.
In 2010, there were 4,502 fatalities for 8,368,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.053% of the motorcyclists were killed.
So we have more than doubled the motorcycle population. Fact. And we have actually reduced fatalities. Fact."
Learn more Fact or Fiction, here:
http://www.mrf.org/pdf/MRF_FactOrFiction2011.pdf
Ride on.
Roadkill
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"Instead, they argue that the government should emphasize rider training to prevent crashes. But it's not clear that training works—on the contrary, a 2007 Indiana study found that riders who had completed a basic training course were 44 percent more likely to be involved in an accident than untrained riders. (The researchers speculated that the trained riders were perhaps overly confident, and thus ended up taking more risks.)"
Is it just me or does MSF tell you the exact opposite?
And btw, Roadkill eye-opening statistic, good job dude. That's because for every a-hole there's ten people who respect the machine.
Is it just me or does MSF tell you the exact opposite?
And btw, Roadkill eye-opening statistic, good job dude. That's because for every a-hole there's ten people who respect the machine.
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I noticed a lot of odd findings in the study and that was one of them. I think every other study I've read came to the opposite conclusion.
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That could be true. As could be said for the (though seemingly anecdotal) quote which said that overconfidence could be the reason for more so-called "trained" motorcyclists to get into trouble.
As of the last few years, I have noticed an upsurge of "new experts" on various motorcycle forums. We all know the type, they typically have absolutely zero formal training (or readings of the generally recommended gurus) or those who take a BRC and suddenly know all there is to know about riding.
Fact of the matter is, whether we're talking about internet or not- this has always happened. Some guy got around the block on his bike the first time without anything but the owners manual to guide him (if that) and now he's the motorcycle expert in his circle of friends. He will give out bad advice, argue in the face of wisdom and experience, and either get himself or someone else killed in the process.
But- looking back at the stats above, gee, we have reduced fatalities despite more than doubling the bike population.
I've said this for decades... if the world made prerequisite that everyone who wanted to operate a car must first log at least 100,000 miles on a motorcycle... cagers might actually know how to drive.
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I had typed out a long response, but here's the short version:
1. Not enough real road experience in MSF class. <25mph in a parking lot / controlled environment does not provide enough situational experience for safe riding--too many variables on the road with other cars. Need improved training programs.
2. Europe's graduate system based on safe experience. Start with a 125cc bike and after year of accident-free riding, can move up to 250cc, and so on. Power is a risk factor if you don't know how to handle it. Speed = less reaction time.
3. Data set of 250cc bikes most likely to be in an accident in first 6 months of rider (newbie). Clearly there's a correlation between inexperience and danger. However, I don't discount the squids who take a 1000cc bike 150mph around the highway and their impact on the 'preception' of how dangerous motorcycling is to the general public. We're NOT the 1%!
4. Hurt Report (1981) only Los Angeles area. A COMPREHENSIVE national study needs to be conducted so that riders can make informed decisions. The research I've seen is one-sided. It is a PERSONAL CHOICE and we should be provided with both sides of the story.
Bottom line: How can we as advocates of safe riding influence the situation?
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I dunno about that whole copying the European model, as reasonable as it sounds. They don't even want to mandate helmet laws in states, you think mandating a tiered engine size based on experience will fly well here?
I really like like Roadkill's statistics, assuming they are sound,
"In 1997, there were 2,116 fatalities for 3,826,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.055% of the motorcyclists were killed.
In 2010, there were 4,502 fatalities for 8,368,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.053% of the motorcyclists were killed." -- Roadkill
IMO if you want to behave dangerously and do risky things on the road, too bad if you get hurt, there shouldn't be a textbook of regulations because a few people want to be knuckleheads.
The other day I got cocky (I'm a noob rider) and I started cutting off cars on my way to the gym, I stopped short at least 3 times, more times in that 20-minute span than I have in 4 months of riding. Go figure, lesson learned.
I really like like Roadkill's statistics, assuming they are sound,
"In 1997, there were 2,116 fatalities for 3,826,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.055% of the motorcyclists were killed.
In 2010, there were 4,502 fatalities for 8,368,000 motorcycles registered. Or 0.053% of the motorcyclists were killed." -- Roadkill
IMO if you want to behave dangerously and do risky things on the road, too bad if you get hurt, there shouldn't be a textbook of regulations because a few people want to be knuckleheads.
The other day I got cocky (I'm a noob rider) and I started cutting off cars on my way to the gym, I stopped short at least 3 times, more times in that 20-minute span than I have in 4 months of riding. Go figure, lesson learned.
Couple things I just noticed from the linked study from the article:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf
It shows motorcycle injuries actually went down almost 10% year over year:
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Motorcycles 82,000 -8,000 -8.9% 82,000 -8,000 -8.9%
Contrast that with the passenger car injuries which went up 4% year over year:
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Passenger Cars 1,258,000 +42,000 +3.5% 1,253,000 +37,000 +3.0%
Also contrast the number of motorcycle injuries (82,000) with the number of pedestrian injuries (70,000):
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Pedestrians 70,000 +11,000 +19% 70,000 +11,000 +19%
So motorcycle injuries are about the same as pedestrian injuries (and the fatality numbers are also similar). Maybe we should mandate that all pedestrians wear helmets as well? Or are they "free to be roadkill" as well?
Just absolutely insane to me how much the media focuses on motorcycles when we have a near epidemic problem of passenger car injuries and accidents. We need to fix that problem first, but of course it's more likely the author of this article is part of the problem and doesn't want to admit it.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf
It shows motorcycle injuries actually went down almost 10% year over year:
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Motorcycles 82,000 -8,000 -8.9% 82,000 -8,000 -8.9%
Contrast that with the passenger car injuries which went up 4% year over year:
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Passenger Cars 1,258,000 +42,000 +3.5% 1,253,000 +37,000 +3.0%
Also contrast the number of motorcycle injuries (82,000) with the number of pedestrian injuries (70,000):
Injured Change from ‘09 % Change Injured Change from ‘09 % Change
Pedestrians 70,000 +11,000 +19% 70,000 +11,000 +19%
So motorcycle injuries are about the same as pedestrian injuries (and the fatality numbers are also similar). Maybe we should mandate that all pedestrians wear helmets as well? Or are they "free to be roadkill" as well?
Just absolutely insane to me how much the media focuses on motorcycles when we have a near epidemic problem of passenger car injuries and accidents. We need to fix that problem first, but of course it's more likely the author of this article is part of the problem and doesn't want to admit it.
I absolutely agree all driver's should have mandatory motorcycle training as part of getting a driver's license. Part of it is being a better driver, and the other part is actually having some empathy for motorcyclists, instead of this borderline sociopathic article which wants to pigeon hole all of us as demented risk takers intent on being road kill. No pedestrian wants to be road kill, no car driver wants to be road kill, and no motorcyclist wants to be road kill. Just the thought process that allows the author to get to that conclusion shows he has simply no idea what it means to be a rider and probably has zero respect for them on the road.
I talk to anyone who will listen that the safety of motorcycles is a critically under researched topic.
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Question For those statistic peeps....does anyone know how many riders were taken out by cagers? In my neck of the woods a good amount of fatalities are due to cagers who claimed they did not see the motorcycle/or blamed it on them. Just a question
For those statistic peeps....does anyone know how many riders were taken out by cagers? In my neck of the woods a good amount of fatalities are due to cagers who claimed they did not see the motorcycle/or blamed it on them. Just a question
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In some European countries youngsters can be licenced to to ride a moped as young as 14 or 15, 2 or 3 years before they can be licenced to drive a car.
Here in Thailand the law is similar; small motorcycle licence at 15 and car licence at 18. In reality they start riding on the road much younger, and many never bother getting a licence.
Thailand's traffic is fairly crazy, but I do sense that car drivers are generally more aware of motorcycles than in some other countries that I have ridden in.
Wearing a helmet on the mean streets makes sense. It doesn't take much of a tap on the head to kill someone.
Other gear can save some skin when skidding across the tarmac, but it provides only limited protection from impact.
Helmets and gear don't prevent accidents; that's down to the awareness and attitude of what is being protected. Training can help, but experience is the greatest teacher.
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