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Synthetic oil no good??

53K views 99 replies 44 participants last post by  jkv357 
#1 ·
So I finally got my bike up to the 1000km mark, booked it in for its first service ( which was free, part of the deal we got here in Oz)..
I asked the service manager to replace the oil with synthetic when they do the oil change, he told me synthetic is no good for the CBR as it will glaze the bores?
I have no reason not to believe what I'm being told as I know the guys in the workshop personally just wondering if anybody heard this before? :confused:
 
#2 ·
My dealer told me otherwise, they said that you just need to make sure it doesn't have any additives like most do. The cylinder bore thing is more likely that he's trying to say "If you use synthetic in the break in period it will not break in properly" That I'll buy and that's why my first oil change is the normal Honda GN4 stuff. But after my first 3500 miles I'm going to be changing it again and probably using synthetic. The other problem is that motorcycles use the oil for the transmission and clutch as well as the engine. This means there are lots of different functions the oil is performing so it needs to meet the right standards. Just read the bottles carefully and see that it meets the standards your user manual says the oil needs to meet.
 
#54 ·
I changed to Mobil 1 4T 10W40 motorcycle oil at 588 miles. Not using synth during the break in is the oldschool way from when synthetic oils first hit the market that is still in vogue. Does anyone still think there is any important ongoing break in going on in a modern engine after 600 miles of normal 30 mile trips?
I just bought a used 2012 with a little over 2k miles. I am a retired auto tech and have owned countless motorcycles. My last bike was a Honda Shadow and I had the local Honda Motorcycle dealer do the service. That bike only had 200 miles on it when I bought it. Dealer used synthetic (not sure what brand) but they told me they used Synthetic all the time.

I just bought two qts of Mobil 1 4T 10w40 and am installing Honda oil filter, gasket and crush washer. I don't hesitate to use Synthetic. I own a Mercedes with 160k miles, Mobil 1 factory installed! I use Mobil one in that because that's what Mercedes uses. Motor is quite and powerful and runs perfect. Also owned a late model Saab and with it's GM engineered Ecotech 4 banger, also uses Mobil 1 from the factory. Friends of mine who drag race cars use Mobil 1. I use it in all my cars and trucks and think it's a great product. No brainer for me. Just don't understand all the overthinking here! (and yes I did research the Mobil 1 4T specs and additives and they have all the right stuff needed for the bikes. JMHO:cool:
 
#5 ·
Strongly agreed with Somebody5788.

During the break-in, there're small metal shavings appear out of crankcase, shaft, conrods & all metals withing the new tranny. Unless the engine oil is heavy, has bigger molecular structures, these particles will never come out. The natural mineral oil has bigger molecular structure that does the job.

However, after break-in, the molecules should be as light as possible to avoid any further damage + to withstand high degree of heat without loosing viscosity. For this type of requirement, a fully synthetic man made oil is the best as the molecular structures are small & light.

However, if a FS is being switched over after prolonged usage of mineral or SS, its quite possible that the engine oil could seep through the rings & reach the top of the piston causing white smoke.
 
#6 · (Edited)
The oil viscosity should remain the same between oils. Synthetic doesn't offer better protection necessarily, it just stays with in oil standards for a longer period of time. This is where the protection comes from. Synthetic does typically lubricate better though and in the break in the idea is to file the edge of the piston rings down. If you use synthetic it could very well wear the hash marks off of the cylinder before the piston ring. This is also what happens if one doesn't follow instructions on the break in.
 
#7 ·
From everything i have heard/read, you don't want to switch to synthetic too soon (ie i am inclined to leave it until at least 5000 kms/3000 miles. As it was described recently to me by my dealer, synthetic is too slippery for a new engine to actually break-in effectively. The other issue is that as long as you change the oil at reasonable intervals (every 5 or 6000 kms) and do not leave old in over the winter (in northern climates where we don't get to ride year round), regular oil should be fine. I have heard that it is only at the highest levels of racing (GP) that Honda uses synthetic oil in their engines.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I went in to the dealer in Australia where i have purchase the bike. I ask for a oil filter and a good synthetic oil to do an oil change. My bike has already done the first 1000kmssservice.

I wanted to change to full synthetic oil but was told not to because it would glaze the cylinder and not good for the clutch as well, i was told. By the way my clutch has been glazed and the noise is still there when i change the gears .It does this when the engine it cold. It goes away when the oil is warm up after 15mins of riding. (Bike has done over 2000kms).

Anyway i was told to change it to full syn when the bike has done over 12,000kms.However i did purchase a oil change kit which Honda has brought out for this bike which consist of (2 ltrs oil which honda recommended, oil filter, oil filter gasket and sum plug ) which cost $55 aust dollars. So i will change the oil between the actual service at 6000kms, and i will stick to the mineral oil for now to see if the glaze on my clutch will go away.......fingers cross...????
 
#9 ·
Just find the Happy medium.. use synthetic after 6000kms,
Or change more regularly than the 12,000 recomended.
12,000 is too long for non synthetic.... to long for any single but thats Hondas call.

I raced TTR's at top level enduro racing for many years and never ran synthetic in engines that were modified (flat slide carb, port work, higher compression and putting out 24hp at the wheel) to run strong all day. Just on on Castrol 4T with never a problem... not even a rebuild in 2 yrs racing. clutches and gearboxes loved it too.
 
#11 ·
Everybody's right.....you need to wait to switch to synthetic after the brake-in period. The minerals in conventional oil help the brake-in process. After that, as long as you switch to synthetic oil that fits your bike you should be alright.

I'm at 2000km. Went to the dealer for the first 1000km check. I'm waiting to get to 3000km and then I will change my oil for this one:

AMSOIL 10W-30 Motorcycle Oil (MCT)
 
#12 ·
Everybody's right.....you need to wait to switch to synthetic after the brake-in period. The minerals in conventional oil help the brake-in process. After that, as long as you switch to synthetic oil that fits your bike you should be alright.

I'm at 2000km. Went to the dealer for the first 1000km check. I'm waiting to get to 3000km and then I will change my oil
X2 to what he says. Synthetic is great for engine components but just don't do it till the engines broken in.
 
#13 ·
If you have no reason to not believe what you're told, why are you switching in the first place?

Don't switch just becuase you heard someone say somewhere on some forum its good. IMHO, if you're not sure, leave it alone. I don't seem to get the vibe that you want synthetic for a particular reason other then hype.
 
#14 ·
Not hype, synthetic is better protection for the moving parts than mineral IMO, just not in this case..

I have been around High performance bikes, cars, boats all my life and since synthetic has been on the market (and been affordable) that's all I have ever used.
So before I shelled out the hard earned cash on something that might not fit the bill I thought I'd ask the question of the guys that are trained by Honda to work on the new CBR engine, and I was told that it's no good for it, therefore the oil was replaced with the recommended mineral oil and always will be ;)

end of story :)
 
#15 ·
Synthetic good

I changed to synthetic oil at the first change at 600 miles. Mobil 1 4T has all the correct formulation for wet clutches. I work for Mercedes which ship with Mobil 1 in the engines and prohibits the use mineral oil. Ever! Synthetic oil is better. There can be no denying that. Better fuel economy and better engine longevity. It is also widely reported on other forums that motorcyle shift quality is improved with synthetic. The shifting of the Honda didn't change as much but my Ninja250 shifts much better after changing to Mobil 1 4T. Fuel economy went up 2%. The only disadvantage of synthetic is the price but with only 1.5 quarts needed per oil change in a motorcycle, the price difference is insignificant. I recommend switching to Mobil 1 4T at 600 miles/ 1000Km.
 
#17 ·
I changed to synthetic oil at the first change at 600 miles. Mobil 1 4T has all the correct formulation for wet clutches. I work for Mercedes which ship with Mobil 1 in the engines and prohibits the use mineral oil. Ever! Synthetic oil is better. There can be no denying that. Better fuel economy and better engine longevity. It is also widely reported on other forums that motorcyle shift quality is improved with synthetic. The shifting of the Honda didn't change as much but my Ninja250 shifts much better after changing to Mobil 1 4T. Fuel economy went up 2%. The only disadvantage of synthetic is the price but with only 1.5 quarts needed per oil change in a motorcycle, the price difference is insignificant. I recommend switching to Mobil 1 4T at 600 miles/ 1000Km.
You always have good advice. :)
 
#16 ·
According to the manual the "run in" period is 300 miles. My dealer put AMSoil full sythn 10w-30 motorcycle oil in at the 600 mile service. Mine now has 3000+ miles on it. Purrs like a cheetah!
 
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#19 ·
I threw in some Mobile 1 4T 10W-40 at 4425 miles and the bike runs much smoother. The engine just feels solid. It has been 1800 miles and it is still running strong. It hasn't started to feel like it needs a change. I guess all those scientific tests on motor oils I read were right about Mobile 1 maintaining viscosity longer. It is amazing.

I don't really understand why engineers do everything they can to reduce friction in an engine and then recommend an inferior lubricant. In the end it probably doesn't matter, but there is a perceptible difference between "semi" and full synthetic. Or maybe there isn't.
 
#21 ·
At first service (1000km) my dealer used Motul 5100, being a noob to bike mechanics I figured I'd leave it to dealer to choose. The Motul is a 15w-50 vis rating is there any advantage/disadvantage to this over the Mobil 1's 10w-40?
 
#22 ·
At first service (1000km) my dealer used Motul 5100, being a noob to bike mechanics I figured I'd leave it to dealer to choose. The Motul is a 15w-50 vis rating is there any advantage/disadvantage to this over the Mobil 1's 10w-40?
Motul is excellent oil, but I wouldn't run a 15W-50. Recommended is 10W-30, but I personally would run a quality synthetic 5W-40 (Rotella T6) or 10W-40 (Motul, Mobil 1 4T, Castrol 4T).

There has been some talk about a "5500 RPM rattle", mostly after the 600 mi service. If it turns out to be coming from the rocker arms as some think, a heavier oil like a synthetic 40-grade may help with an increase in viscosity and oil pressure.
 
#28 ·
impure

tollarja said:
... In the end it probably doesn't matter, but there is a perceptible difference between "semi" and full synthetic. Or maybe there isn't.
+Oh, there definitely is, (though I understand pteradactyl toenails have unique lubricating qualities).

A few years ago, blenders (with Castrol in the lead) won the right to label their products as "full synthetic", thereby throwing a veil over the eyes of consumers, who didn't (and still don't) know that "full" didn't mean "pure" or "100%".

If anyone wants a dealer cost quote for AMSOIL, ping me direct.

Ride on.
Roadkill
http://www.roadkillonline.net/imagedb_images/35_10254.JPG
 
#32 ·
+Oh, there definitely is, (though I understand pteradactyl toenails have unique lubricating qualities).

A few years ago, blenders (with Castrol in the lead) won the right to label their products as "full synthetic", thereby throwing a veil over the eyes of consumers, who didn't (and still don't) know that "full" didn't mean "pure" or "100%".

If anyone wants a dealer cost quote for AMSOIL, ping me direct.

Ride on.
Roadkill
[URL]http://www.roadkillonline.net/imagedb_images/35_10254.JPG[/URL]
True, but "hydrocracked" synthetics are still pretty darn good! Considerably better than typical conventional oils IMO.

As I understand it, in some European countries "hydrocracked" synthetics are not allowed to be marketed as "synthetic".

Motul Ester-based synthetics (API Group V) would be one example of a top-notch "true 100% synthetic" oil.

Rotella T6 synthetic (API Group III) is one example of a "hydrocracked" synthetic.

In between are "PAO"-based oils (API Group IV)

The Rotella T6 is about 1/2 the price of the Motul synthetic.


Jay
 
#29 ·
MOMs coming to the API (maybe she'll bake cookies)

+Perhaps we'll start seeing some consistency in the ongoing oil debates soon...

"ORLANDO, Fla. - The American Petroleum Institute is on the verge of launching a national motor oil quality program to educate industry and consumers, license oil distributors and installers, and encourage state regulators to require the same disclosures for bulk oil as for bottled oil.

Kevin Ferrick, manager of API's Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System, told the Independent Lubricant Manufacturers Association annual meeting here last week that API has transformed Shell's Motor Oil Matters
program into an industry-wide, non-brand-specific campaign.

The goals, said Ferrick, are to educate marketers, distributors and installers on the importance of oil quality; identify quality motor oils from the point of manufacture to installation; give credibility to the marketers, distributors and installers making and handling quality oils; explain how quality oils limit or prevent liability claims; and identify off-spec oils in the market."

See the full 10/26/11 LUBE REPORT article, "At API, Motor Oil Really Matters"
By Nancy DeMarco here:

http://www.imakenews.com/eletra/mod_print_view.cfm?this_id=2247337&u=lng&show_issue_date=F&issue_id=000550015&lid=bkb0FCC&uid=bbV6BC50
or
http://tinyurl.com/MOMatAPI

Ride on.
Roadkill
 
#30 ·
A mechanic that used to work on my turbo 6cyl. car once told me that once you use a synthetic oil in an engine you can't go back to mineral oil. Can't remember his logic, to long ago.
Truth or fiction?
 
#38 ·
2nd oil change with Mobil 1

I did my second oil change with 5327 miles on the bike. The Mobil 1 4T that was in there since 800 miles looked very good coming out. Still amber. No grey or metal shavings that the first oil change had. Very little usage. I never added any and it may have been only about 100ml lower than it was initially.
 
#39 ·
Undoubtedly, synthetic oil is "better" than conventional oil. Typically, it has a better base stock, better shearing resistance through its VIIs (viscosity index improvers), better at keeping contaminants in suspension, better at maintaining surface film lubrication, higher flashpoint, etc.

But.

I'm a big believer in Honda quality, and with proper oil change intervals, the 250R's engine will last a very long time with conventional oil. Perhaps it will last even longer if synthetics are used over its lifetime (though not empirically a given), but will you really be keeping the bike that long?

If synthetics allowed the engine/transmission to last, for example, 100,000mi instead of 90,000mi with dino oil, does that offset the additional cost of synthetic oil?

Now here's the part where I sound like a hypocrite: after break-in, I plan on using nothing but a synthetic 0-weight for as long as I own my bike. I get satisfaction from extracting all the performance and efficiency from my vehicles as I possibly can, which is how I justify the additional cost.

Everyone needs to make their own cost/benefit analysis and decide from there.
 
#40 ·
Undoubtedly, synthetic oil is "better" than conventional oil. Typically, it has a better base stock, better shearing resistance through its VIIs (viscosity index improvers), better at keeping contaminants in suspension, better at maintaining surface film lubrication, higher flashpoint, etc.

But.

I'm a big believer in Honda quality, and with proper oil change intervals, the 250R's engine will last a very long time with conventional oil. Perhaps it will last even longer if synthetics are used over its lifetime (though not empirically a given), but will you really be keeping the bike that long?

If synthetics allowed the engine/transmission to last, for example, 100,000mi instead of 90,000mi with dino oil, does that offset the additional cost of synthetic oil?

Now here's the part where I sound like a hypocrite: after break-in, I plan on using nothing but a synthetic 0-weight for as long as I own my bike. I get satisfaction from extracting all the performance and efficiency from my vehicles as I possibly can, which is how I justify the additional cost.

Everyone needs to make their own cost/benefit analysis and decide from there.
I was with you up to that point.

Unless you are running in extremely low temps, 5W is fine. 10W is too heavy for anything below 40 degrees IMO.

I always run top-quality synthetic oil in almost everything (even my snowblower), and just changed to 0W synthetic in the cars for winter (20 degrees and way below). You can run 0W year-round also, but I will usually run 5W synthetic over the summer because of the lower cost.

Are you planning to go with a 0W-30? Who makes a 0W cycle oil? I'm assuming you are planning on using a cycle oil and not an auto oil - right?


Jay
 
#41 ·
I'll agree synthetic may last longer, but I'd rather change mine every 4000km instead of 12,000 so that is a non issue to me.

but one question~
Why do you believe Synthetic is better at keeping contaminants in suspension?
 
#42 ·
I'll agree synthetic may last longer, but I'd rather change mine every 4000km instead of 12,000 so that is a non issue to me.

but one question~
Why do you believe Synthetic is better at keeping contaminants in suspension?
You can change synthetic at 4000km if you want to...

I don't think of synthetic oil in terms of lasting longer, just providing better lubrication and engine protection. I change my synthetic oil when I feel it needs it, and don't stretch my intervals to the max in any of my engines. Oil is way too important to get lazy or cheap-out on IMO.

Top quality synthetics have some advantages over conventional oil, especially when used in engines that only hold a small amount of oil and rev high. The cost difference when you are talking about such small amount isn't enough to worry about when compared to the benefit.

I'll let PolyOlefin answer the second part.


Jay
 
#45 ·
from the archives...

I did not reember this detail, but i remember the article from back when Yoshia graced the hood.


'Yoshima started out running Castrol-R (castor-based) oil in his engines, but recently switched to AmsOil 10w-40 synthetic racing oil when he found that oil pressure under racing conditions stayed higher with the synthetic.'


From: 1977 Cycle World: Yoshima’s Business Card | SOHC/4 Owners Club
 
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