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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
1500 miles seems like overkill for normal riding?
How do you ride a 250 normally? When Im on the highway Im at a constant 8-10k rpm and when Im joy riding, well, you know. This poor little single is almost wailing all the time except in the city, which is where I get the least mileage. But thats 250cc, you cant really get it to move without red lining it or close to it all the time. The manuals suggestion seems incredibly spread out, makes me think they want you to end up servicing your bike sooner than later, preferably at your local Honda dealer.
 

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My honda manual says to replace the oil every 8000 miles after first service or every 12 months. My truck is a V6 & the oil change 3000 miles, now do the math, 6 cylinders, 3000 miles. 1 cylinder, 8000 miles. Something doesnt sound right about Honda 8,000 mile oil change on a 1 cylinder engine. I replace mine at 1,500 miles or at winter shutdown . Its cheap prevenative maintenance.
 

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Many people change their oil far too often based on gut feel rather than science.

Oil assays are the only way to accurately determine oil change intervals, and this is what the manufacturer does.

Changing the oil more frequently than recommended may be necessary in some situations (track, really dirty environment), but operating the bike on the street within design limits (anything under the redline) isn't one of them. And disturbing a functioning system can cause issues - stripped theads, leaks, etc.

The oil change interval in my 2000 VW TDI is 10,000 miles. I use full synthetic, follow the interval, and forget about it. It's got 180k miles and going strong. I'll follow the same strategy with my 250R.
 

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Many people change their oil far too often based on gut feel rather than science.

Oil assays are the only way to accurately determine oil change intervals, and this is what the manufacturer does.

Changing the oil more frequently than recommended may be necessary in some situations (track, really dirty environment), but operating the bike on the street within design limits (anything under the redline) isn't one of them.
+1. There's a lot of people on here that think they know better than the company who designed the bike. Of course, they're all fully qualified in this sort of work. :rolleyes: Just do what it says in the handbook, and you won't go far wrong. ;)
 

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There is no way I'd leave the oil in a single cyl that has to be worked pretty hard to get anywhere for 12,000km.
yes Honda will warrant the bike for 24 months.. and the book says its ok, but I'd like it to be at its best for longer.
Clean oil is the secret to longevity & performance and its cheap.
 

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Mine is still full and clean with 4 k miles since the last change. I don't run the crap out of mine, probably change it at 5k and use amsoil motorcycle specific oil. Heck I might just wait to see if it even starts to drop any oil level then change it.

While it is a high revving engine so is the S2000, with very close to the same red line.

EFI makes everything cleaner inside the engine and my oil shows it compared to the Kawasaki at 1500 miles on a change with dark oil. The other side of the Kawa is the spin on filter, same as a Nissan Maxima, and 3 quarts of oil.

Of course if you figured the 250 would be a 2 liter 8 cylinder engine and hold 16 quarts of oil then the volume of oil per cylinder and displacement gives you an idea of the volume of circulation as a percentage of total quantity of oil, and oil today is nothing like it was 30 years ago.

regards
Badger
 

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There is no way I'd leave the oil in a single cyl that has to be worked pretty hard to get anywhere for 12,000km.
yes Honda will warrant the bike for 24 months.. and the book says its ok, but I'd like it to be at its best for longer.
Clean oil is the secret to longevity & performance and its cheap.
Yup.

But some people don't understand. :(
 

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I too changed mine at winter shutdown..it had 3500 miles on it and looked just as clean as the new oil i put back in.. That told me right there that 8000 or 1 year was most likely adequate. If anytime I look thru the sight glass at pre-ride inspection and see that its changing and its not golden and as clear anymore/ then ill change it again..or at the end of this season again, whichever comes first.
 

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Yup.

But some people don't understand. :(
Don't understand science. Only oil assays can tell dirty oil from clean. Modern oil goes through chemical changes in the first couple hundred miles, ending up looking dirty. It then more or less stabilizes for many, many, thousands of miles before degrading out of spec.

If you want to change your oil every 1,2,3k miles, go for it, but it's no secret sauce, and it's certainly not based on evidence.
 

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If you're one of the 'I don't go over 6000rpm because the bike will melt/explode' preachers than the oil is likely to have less of an effect.

I change mine before and after a long ride - where the engine will be pinned WOT for hours on highway, and bike lashed through mountain twisities in low gear redline for one or two days and 600-1500km depending.

The following oil change (Honda oil) is immediately noticeable, and the difference quite amazing. Of course Honda oil is, well, pretty crap.
 

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First thing I ask for about a secondhand engine is the oil changes.
I record my own changes in the logbook for reference and future owners.

far more important than how its been revved.
 

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Part of the appeal of the CBR to me is the longer service intervals. A benefit of the cleaner combustion of precision fuel injection. I ride as fast as I can legally. Do otherwise and you can find it to be a heck of a lot more expensive than any oil change. Habitual offender laws here can mean you loose your driving privileges permanently, and if you were stupid enough to ride down any of the Interstates here at top speed you would not be riding long, if you could even find insurance.

My new 2011 Ford Fiesta is 10k miles between oil changes. The CBR is 8k, and the Vulcan is 6k. If you want to change your oil 100 times in 100k miles and buy 200 quarts of oil at $5 a quart, that certainly is your choice, to spend $1000 on oil and throw away 80% of its useful life. I guess that is the difference between money in the bank and used oil in the garage.

Just like 50 MPG for 100k miles and 80 MPG for 100 k miles, 2000 gallons of fuel or 1250 gallons of fuel. 750 gallons at say $5 a gallon, $3750 dollars in the bank again.
So in oil changes not wasted and fuel not wasted I have paid for my bike, while riding exactly the same speed I would regardless.

regards
Badger
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
Anyone who wants to change once every 8k miles, go ahead, but dont pretend your getting the same wear as someone who always has a fresh batch of oil just like I wont pretend wailing the engine red line all day is the same wear as someone riding 4-6k rpm all day. I push the engine, so Ill change the oil. Drive like grandma and 8k mile change intervals is a sweet deal, enjoy it.

Also, you dont have to break the law to drive fast and wear your engine. Driving fast on the highway is hella boring anyway. People go to the track for speed or hit the canyons (within my budget). Either way your within the law and raping the engine. Some of these trickier canyons have 55mph limits on them and unless you've got some sick skills you will have trouble breaking that law by much.
 

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Anyone who wants to change once every 8k miles, go ahead, but dont pretend your getting the same wear as someone who always has a fresh batch of oil...
Everyone agrees that clean oil is better than dirty oil is better than no oil.

Motorcycle manufacturers do not pull maintenance intervals out of their a**es. They do not formulate them so the the motorcycle disintegrates to dust at warranty expiration + 1 day. They create them based on data.

Honda will run multiple engines at multiple RPMs and frequently take oil samples, measuring oil acid neutralizing capacity, iron and aluminum wear metal concentration, oil viscosity dilution, etc. They look at all the data and set the oil change interval to make the engine last the longest and leave the most money in the owner's pocket. Ecological impacts are increasingly being factored in. It's a standard cost / benefit decision.

Is an engine running fresh oil wearing less than an engine running oil with 8000 miles on it? Yes, but not by much. It's a different story as you go beyond the recommended service interval. How do I know this? Because Honda did not pull the service interval out of their a**. They used data.

Now let's say we're not a center of the bell curve rider. Let's say we lay down on our tank and go as fast as this little bike will go. 10k RPM. From Maine to California. On dirt roads. In the dusty summer. Stop only for gas. 3000 miles. Will I change the oil before I turn around and return to Maine? Yes, because it's clearly a situation that Honda didn't consider.

How about really aggressive street riding? Always in the top end of the RPM range? Frequently redlining? Might it make sense to change at 6k instead of 8k? This is situation that Honda did consider. We're not in the center of the bell curve, so going a bit early may have merit. How about changing at 3k instead of 8k? There is no way that riding within design specifications on the road would ever justify it.
 

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I was under the impression that gearbox shearing was a major factor in the breakdown of the oil viscosity formulation. Higher engine speeds in lower gears also increases the transmission shear. I ride trails and such; my 230L gets oil changes every 600-650 miles. The street bikes are on a 1000-1200 mile change schedule (or less if my wife doesn't put many miles on her Rebel). Obviously, I'm not using a full synthetic oil with these bikes.
 

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Everyone agrees that clean oil is better than dirty oil is better than no oil.

Motorcycle manufacturers do not pull maintenance intervals out of their a**es. They do not formulate them so the the motorcycle disintegrates to dust at warranty expiration + 1 day. They create them based on data.

Honda will run multiple engines at multiple RPMs and frequently take oil samples, measuring oil acid neutralizing capacity, iron and aluminum wear metal concentration, oil viscosity dilution, etc. They look at all the data and set the oil change interval to make the engine last the longest and leave the most money in the owner's pocket. Ecological impacts are increasingly being factored in. It's a standard cost / benefit decision.

Is an engine running fresh oil wearing less than an engine running oil with 8000 miles on it? Yes, but not by much. It's a different story as you go beyond the recommended service interval. How do I know this? Because Honda did not pull the service interval out of their a**. They used data.

Now let's say we're not a center of the bell curve rider. Let's say we lay down on our tank and go as fast as this little bike will go. 10k RPM. From Maine to California. On dirt roads. In the dusty summer. Stop only for gas. 3000 miles. Will I change the oil before I turn around and return to Maine? Yes, because it's clearly a situation that Honda didn't consider.

How about really aggressive street riding? Always in the top end of the RPM range? Frequently redlining? Might it make sense to change at 6k instead of 8k? This is situation that Honda did consider. We're not in the center of the bell curve, so going a bit early may have merit. How about changing at 3k instead of 8k? There is no way that riding within design specifications on the road would ever justify it.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but there are other factors.

Running an engine at high RPMs for extended periods isn't a major wear factor on oil IMO - if you have the right oil.

Oils lose viscosity during use. Quality synthetic oils lose less, especially if high heat is a factor. Conventional oils will breakdown much faster from exposure to high heat than synthetic oils. Running an engine at operating temp and high RPMs isn't that hard on it or the oil. The amount of contaminants you are introducing is minimal.

What's worse are short trips to the store and frequent cold starts with little run time. In that case you are at the other end of Honda's bell curve - that's the other end of extreme service IMO. You are contaminating your oil and not letting it burn-off moisture and unburned fuel. During extended riding, at the oil's operating temp, those contaminants will mostly be evaporated.

That's my opinion. I run synthetic oil in everything (even my snow blower) and change it when I feel it's necessary. That's always significantly before the factory recommendation. My vehicles do get a lot of short trips and cold starts and the oil gets contaminated quickly. But then again, I've never understood stretching your oil changes to the max and trying to reduce maintenance to the minimum on vehicles (or equipment) that costs thousands to replace.

As I've said before, because the CBR carries a small amount of oil I'd run a top-quality synthetic oil and change it frequently.


Jay
 
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